Author |
Topic Search Topic Options
|
TGM: Orb
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 21 2007
Location: n/a
Status: Offline
Points: 8052
|
Posted: July 25 2008 at 17:17 |
YARK!
Went *shopping* yesterday, and, for some reason, there were almost no trousers that would fit. I'm not ridiculously tall (6'1"ish) and I'm not ridiculously thin (30" waist or so), but, seriously, the trouser-hunting (I suppose if I stopped my anti-jeans policy, I'd be fine) did not go altogether swimmingly.
|
|
Wilcey
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2696
|
Posted: August 08 2008 at 11:37 |
NICE
National Institute for Clinical Excellence announced yesterday that drugs routinely available to treat late stage Renal Cancer (by 'late stage' I mean pretty much as far gone as it gets , and by 'treat' I mean ensure a decent standard of life, and maybe and extension of a few months) is no longer financially viable. Despite regular usage in all western european states and USA.
Now, NICE is funded by the UK governement to the tune of 30 million a year. (take a moment with that would you...THIRTY MILLION A YEAR) just the cost of one 'company car' would/could extend a life/save a lfe/give someone dignity in death. We are talking £24k for years worth of medication.
I don't quite know who to shout at, the greedy selfish, hanging off the coat tails of Govt.for big payouts types who work for NICE. Gordon (now let me screw the nation) Brown, or the pharmaceutical mougals.
But I can assure you I am FLIPPING angry. Too angry even for the Ranting Room.
and I am exhausted.
Fingers crossed chaps, for a brighter, fairer future.
Edited by prog-chick - August 08 2008 at 11:38
|
|
Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
|
Posted: August 08 2008 at 13:44 |
^^^ The buck stops with the w*****s in government. They decide how much tax we pay, and how much of that revenue is earmarked for the NHS. NICE work out the 'value' of drug treatments based on how much money there is in the pot. Thats my, slightly over simplified understanding of the situation.
Everything is driven by cost, sadly, and as far as the Pharma companies go, human suffering is big business.
|
|
Wilcey
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2696
|
Posted: August 11 2008 at 05:44 |
Ah, but as this is the RANTING room, and not the "Sit back and take a long rational look" room, I stand by my original post!
and I am still FLIPPIN angry! Effectively NICE have decided which diseases/ailments are 'worth' treating and which are not. Renal Cancer effects about 7,000 a year in the UK, about 2/3'ds of this number are terminal conditions. Are NICE just shrugging their shoulders and thinking 7,000 is a relatively small number of people? Do they think that as it's not a drug that effects 7 million they can get away with those folk dying without a massive uprising of angry souls?
Again, I go back to the point, this is a place to RANT, and I reserve my RANTING rights!
|
|
Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
|
Posted: August 11 2008 at 06:54 |
prog-chick wrote:
Ah, but as this is the RANTING room, and not the "Sit back and take a long rational look" room, I stand by my original post!
and I am still FLIPPIN angry! Effectively NICE have decided which diseases/ailments are 'worth' treating and which are not. Renal Cancer effects about 7,000 a year in the UK, about 2/3'ds of this number are terminal conditions. Are NICE just shrugging their shoulders and thinking 7,000 is a relatively small number of people? Do they think that as it's not a drug that effects 7 million they can get away with those folk dying without a massive uprising of angry souls?
Again, I go back to the point, this is a place to RANT, and I reserve my RANTING rights! |
Oh, dont get me wrong, it's a situation worthy of the most venomous of rants, and your's was a fine one.. I can only try to imagine how someone would feel being denied these vital treatments in 21C Britain. It makes you realise that you are effectively a number on a database, to these people and not a living soul. NICE are effectively sentencing people to death, because their condition doesn't score high enough on their illness charts!
Rant justified!
|
|
Wilcey
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2696
|
Posted: August 11 2008 at 08:00 |
Thankyou kind sir!
If just one NICE executive gave up their company car, it could save the lives (or indeed improve the deaths) of up to 4 Renal Cancer patients.
I have no idea how they sleep at night!
|
|
Jared
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 06 2005
Location: Hereford, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 19757
|
Posted: August 11 2008 at 11:01 |
Blacksword wrote:
Everything is driven by cost, sadly, and as far as the Pharma companies go, human suffering is big business. |
That's about the size of it...if the cost of an expensive drug that cures 10 people from a terminal illness is the same as 1000 hip replacements, then the latter tends to win, as it fits in with the governments election promises for targets/ quotas shorting of waiting lists.
What I find quite fascinating is that our essential premise of the NHS is based on a philosophy which originated before the French revolution...namely Jeremy Bentham's Utilitarianism which believes that stability within society may be achieved by providing the greatest happiness for the greatest number of people. This might sound very simple, but its actually quite profound. The unfortunate bi-product of such a philosophy will always be the small minority who are made more miserable as a consequence, who have to be sacrificed in the name of social progress for the majority...
...this moral sentiment still affects the core of our NHS today, given that resources are finite...
|
Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson
|
|
limeyrob
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: January 15 2005
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 1402
|
Posted: August 11 2008 at 16:17 |
Point of order please. This drug is NOT a cure - which is one reason why NICE have made their decision. As I understand it this drug gives the patient a few more years.
I'm not going into the ethics of such a decision just merely pointing out a fact
|
|
Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
|
Posted: August 12 2008 at 05:49 |
limeyrob wrote:
Point of order please. This drug is NOT a cure - which is one reason why NICE have made their decision. As I understand it this drug gives the patient a few more years.
I'm not going into the ethics of such a decision just merely pointing out a fact
|
True, but I dont think anyone suggested it was a cure. The bone of contention is the alarming and extraordinarily low value stamped on human life/quality of, in 21st century Britain. When you consider the obscene levels of taxation in this country, and the size of the working, tax paying population, you start to wonder if the old 'we cant afford it' argument is actually true, or if we are just being 'diddled' and short changed.
|
|
Jared
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 06 2005
Location: Hereford, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 19757
|
Posted: August 12 2008 at 07:56 |
^^^did you see that report out last week, Andy, which said that 20% of young people 16-24 in the UK are not in work, education or any form of apprenticeship/training??
the governments official figure is 7%...
if its true, it means that the tax paying population will decrease in future years, at the same time the population is aging, and such drugs will become more necessary...
|
Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson
|
|
Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
|
Posted: August 12 2008 at 08:10 |
fandango wrote:
^^^did you see that report out last week, Andy, which said that 20% of young people 16-24 in the UK are not in work, education or any form of apprenticeship/training??
the governments official figure is 7%...
if its true, it means that the tax paying population will decrease in future years, at the same time the population is aging, and such drugs will become more necessary... |
I had heard something about that, but I cant remember who compiled the report. Do you know?
One this is for certain, a 'goverment figure' is, indeed always worth questioning..
It makes you wonder how other European countries cope. They too have aging populations with the same needs as ours. France, Germany, Greece and numerous other European countries are said to have superior health services to ours, and their retired folk enjoy more generous pensions, so with - in some cases - smaller working populations than ours, how do they afford it? I suspect they earmark a higher % of their GDP to such things. I believe, in France (under Chirac) 38% of GDP was given over to healthcare, although this was further propped up by some private funding. At that time, only 27% of GDP was earmarked for healthcare in the UK. We also pay the highest duty on booze, baccy and fuel, almost 50% at retail price in some cases. WHO is pocketting all this money??
|
|
Wilcey
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2696
|
Posted: August 12 2008 at 08:12 |
limeyrob wrote:
Point of order please. This drug is NOT a cure - which is one reason why NICE have made their decision. As I understand it this drug gives the patient a few more years.
I'm not going into the ethics of such a decision just merely pointing out a fact
|
Actually in some cases the drug halts the growth of the cancer, in some it has no effect, and in some it diminishes the cancer.
What it does do for most cases is mean that the patient can live fairly normally through the last months of their life, rather than being doped up on massive ammounts of morphine.
A good quality of departure of this life I think is more desirable than a painful befuddled one. IT gives dignity to the patient, and quality to the precious remaining time.
The drug is the only real beacon of hope available to the people who need it. Without it they are firmly on the no-hope list.
|
|
Jared
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 06 2005
Location: Hereford, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 19757
|
Posted: August 12 2008 at 17:24 |
Blacksword wrote:
I had heard something about that, but I cant remember who compiled the report. Do you know? |
I'm sorry Andy, I really can't remember...certainly non-governmental; it might have been a University. The only things I can remember was that the samples taken were extensive, the report had taken a long time to compile and had been a costly exercise...I believe it had been commissioned by Industry (probably the CBI).
Interestingly, one substantially sized group which crept under the radar, and were not counted in the 20% were young people who lived at home, working part time hours (eg behind a bar, as a DJ etc) but lived at home and didn't claim benefit, but are damaging their long term career prospects, and not contributing greatly to the economy....
|
Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson
|
|
Neil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 04 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1497
|
Posted: August 13 2008 at 03:51 |
This has become the rational debating room now AND IT'S P!SS!NG ME OFF********.
That said the whole topic of modern medicine and the NHS is a very difficult one. The whole reason for NICE was to look at the global picture and not just one illness at a time. The stark truth is that as the population becomes older and we discover new and more complicated (expensive) cures for diseases the actual financial cost of running the NHS will eventually be higher than the UK tax take. We simply cannot give every available treatment to everybody who needs it forever. I think that we need to revisit the NHS and that it should be there to provide basic health cover and emergency treatment. many other things such as fertility treatment, plastic surgery, etc. etc. will have to be services that we pay for.
|
When people get lost in thought it's often because it's unfamiliar territory.
|
|
Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
|
Posted: August 13 2008 at 05:57 |
Having experienced the NHS firsthand recently I have nothing but praise for them, admitted at 4pm, under the knife by 1am and home by 5pm the following day without contracting MRSA or any other life-threatening viruses. Even the food was partially edible...
...which brings me to my rant: Pak Choy.
I heard on the TV on Monday that thanks to Global Warming we can now grow Pak Choy in Wisbech, East Anglia, UK...
Well, excuse me, but do we really need yet another brassica to grace our kitchens? Isn't cabbage, broccoli , cauliflower, curly kale, spring greens and brussels sprouts enough without recourse to exotics such as kohlrabi and Pak Choy? Do we actually need to con our jaded palates into consuming what is essentially cabbage by another name when there is a plethora of native vegetables that can be used to fill the cap between meat and potatoes on our plates? For that is all it is, an accompaniment, not a primary ingredient - boiled grass would do the same job if we had the ability to digest it. Can we honestly tell the difference between time honoured "greens" boiled in salted water for 4 hours until all colour and flavour has been leeched away so all that remains is the stench that has been permanently infused into the kitchen walls over countless generations and some overpriced "organic" designer vegetable that is lightly sautéed in sesame seed oil and dressed with a smattering of Balsamic vinegar and sprinkled with shaved white truffle and pine nuts once we've pinched our noses, closed our eyes and swallowed the damn stuff without chewing?
|
What?
|
|
Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65442
|
Posted: August 13 2008 at 06:06 |
have to admit Bok Choy (how we spell it on the West Coast) is not one of my favorite greens, not much flavor.. give me some collards any day
|
|
Wilcey
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2696
|
Posted: August 13 2008 at 06:42 |
Heavyfreight wrote:
This has become the rational debating room now AND IT'S P!SS!NG ME OFF********.
That said the whole topic of modern medicine and the NHS is a very difficult one. The whole reason for NICE was to look at the global picture and not just one illness at a time. The stark truth is that as the population becomes older and we discover new and more complicated (expensive) cures for diseases the actual financial cost of running the NHS will eventually be higher than the UK tax take. We simply cannot give every available treatment to everybody who needs it forever. I think that we need to revisit the NHS and that it should be there to provide basic health cover and emergency treatment. many other things such as fertility treatment, plastic surgery, etc. etc. will have to be services that we pay for. |
Oh believe me Neil I have full intentions to RANT and not rationalise. AT ALL.
Given 3 choices, Surgery (99.9% chance of it killing you) , Do nothing (100% chance of it killing you) or Drugs that in 20% of cases have prolonged life by up to 5 years........... the drugs are THE only option.
These are the choices we are facing for my Mum right now.
(Only choice 3 isn't "cost effective" .......... so has been removed.)
Not pretty huh?
I have always been a supporter of the NHS, mostly because my Mum is a huge supporter of it. Yes, I was once admitted at noon, on the table by 1pm and released 6 weeks later after a NASTY dose of MRSA and 2 weeks in coma, ................despite this I firmly believe the NHS is a very good thing.
Farming out the "management" and the "cleaning" is a MASSIVE problem, bring back matron I say!
I know we all feel most about what most effects us, but life saving should never be second choice to "life style" as far as medical desicions go.
IT STINKS.
|
|
Jared
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 06 2005
Location: Hereford, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 19757
|
Posted: August 13 2008 at 06:52 |
Heavyfreight wrote:
This has become the rational debating room now AND IT'S P!SS!NG ME OFF********. |
well, forgive me for indulging in some rational debating every once in a while....
|
Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson
|
|
TGM: Orb
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 21 2007
Location: n/a
Status: Offline
Points: 8052
|
Posted: August 13 2008 at 06:52 |
Why do people think that Hemispheres has brilliant lyrics?!
ARGHDUHDUWHIH!
/rant. Thought it wouldn't be nice to spoil the mood of the Rush lyrics thread.
|
|
LinusW
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 27 2007
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 10665
|
Posted: August 13 2008 at 07:34 |
TGM: Orb wrote:
Why do people think that Hemispheres has brilliant lyrics?!
ARGHDUHDUWHIH!
/rant. Thought it wouldn't be nice to spoil the mood of the Rush lyrics thread.
|
I don't. And being a fan, I hope it can ease your pain. Here's to a quick recovery!
|
|