Forum Home Forum Home > Topics not related to music > General discussions
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Is the UK Really a police state?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedIs the UK Really a police state?
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 678910 11>
Author
Message
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2010 at 12:12
Originally posted by toroddfuglesteg toroddfuglesteg wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by toroddfuglesteg toroddfuglesteg wrote:

The Northern Ireland conflict is the best proof that UK is not a police state. If UK really was a police state, the insurgents and a substantial part of the local population would had been subdued into submission and/or erased.




So Mao's China wasn't a police state?

An insurgency existing could even be argued to be evidence for a police state.

Get the facts right, please. 

The difference is that the Chinese did not have the name and addresses of every insurgents in the vast (as big as USA), often mountainous terrain where the insurgents was/is living and operating. 

UK did and still does due to the very small geographic area and population (120 km x 70 km / 800 000 civil population). The police could had nicked every single one of  these insurgents and their supporters in less than 72 hours if UK was a police state. Easy job.   



The fact that the UK would know the name and address of every insurgent would seem to make my police state theory credible.

Just so you know, even the most brutal regimes can't just kill anyone that's inconvenient to them. A lot of times those things backfire.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
Back to Top
toroddfuglesteg View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
Retired

Joined: March 04 2008
Location: Retirement Home
Status: Offline
Points: 3658 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2010 at 12:23
 
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

  

Just so you know, even the most brutal regimes can't just kill anyone that's inconvenient to them. A lot of times those things backfire.

If a constable know every single name and address in his village; does that makes him a totalitarian person hellbent to control the inhabitants in that village ? 

I don't get the impression that you are debating on the basis of facts. I like your political ideas though. But they are as realistic as my attempts to get my flying carpets business off the ground.  



Edited by toroddfuglesteg - November 05 2010 at 12:24
Back to Top
Blacksword View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2010 at 12:28
Originally posted by toroddfuglesteg toroddfuglesteg wrote:




Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:


Originally posted by toroddfuglesteg toroddfuglesteg wrote:

The Northern Ireland conflict is the best proof that UK is not a police state. If UK really was a police state, the insurgents and a substantial part of the local population would had been subdued into submission and/or erased.

So Mao's China wasn't a police state? An insurgency existing could even be argued to be evidence for a police state.


Get the facts right, please. 

The difference is that the Chinese did not have the name and addresses of every insurgents in the vast (as big as USA), often mountainous terrain where the insurgents was/is living and operating. 

UK did and still does due to the very small geographic area and population (120 km x 70 km / 800 000 civil population). The police could had nicked every single one of  these insurgents and their supporters in less than 72 hours if UK was a police state. Easy job.   

But I like your political ideas, Equality 7-2521. Unfortunate, they are as realistic as my attempts to get a flying carpets business of the ground. 





It's a shame they didn't nick the mastermind behind the 7/7 bombings. He was a known AQ operative, and it's believed was a double agent for MI6. It's on public record that the CIA and FBI had asked us to hand him over, and our government refused. The British police were looking for him, but the intelligence services knew where he was, and valued him as an informer. The day before 7/7 he travelled unhindered to Heathrow airport, where he boarded a plane - unhindered - to Pakistan. On arrival there he was arrested trying to come through immigration, and thrown in jail. 48 hours later - and after the London bombings he was released, and returned to the UK.

I guess this may be part of the reason why MI5 is so reluctant to share intelligence with recent 7/7 inquest, and of course, as you would expect they don't have to share it with anyone other than the coroner, in the name of 'national security'
Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
Back to Top
Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2010 at 13:12
Originally posted by toroddfuglesteg toroddfuglesteg wrote:

 
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

  

Just so you know, even the most brutal regimes can't just kill anyone that's inconvenient to them. A lot of times those things backfire.

If a constable know every single name and address in his village; does that makes him a totalitarian person hellbent to control the inhabitants in that village ? 

I don't get the impression that you are debating on the basis of facts. I like your political ideas though. But they are as realistic as my attempts to get my flying carpets business off the ground.  



Perhaps not, but the UK is hardly a village and a central intelligence agency's framework is hardly a constable's knowledge.

I get the impression that I am, but I quite like my ideas too thank you.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
Back to Top
toroddfuglesteg View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
Retired

Joined: March 04 2008
Location: Retirement Home
Status: Offline
Points: 3658 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2010 at 14:25

The part of the UK I am talking about is a village like society with a small population who has exported the violence to the rest of the UK and Eire. A police state would had erased this without any problems by erasing the human rights there. So no, UK is not a police state.   

End of the matter (from my side). 



Edited by toroddfuglesteg - November 05 2010 at 14:25
Back to Top
Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2010 at 14:47
Originally posted by toroddfuglesteg toroddfuglesteg wrote:

The part of the UK I am talking about is a village like society with a small population who has exported the violence to the rest of the UK and Eire. A police state would had erased this without any problems by erasing the human rights there. So no, UK is not a police state.   

End of the matter (from my side). 



You must be a lawyer with reasoning skills like that.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
Back to Top
VanderGraafKommandöh View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
Status: Offline
Points: 89372 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2010 at 13:44
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by toroddfuglesteg toroddfuglesteg wrote:




Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:


Originally posted by toroddfuglesteg toroddfuglesteg wrote:

The Northern Ireland conflict is the best proof that UK is not a police state. If UK really was a police state, the insurgents and a substantial part of the local population would had been subdued into submission and/or erased.

So Mao's China wasn't a police state? An insurgency existing could even be argued to be evidence for a police state.


Get the facts right, please. 

The difference is that the Chinese did not have the name and addresses of every insurgents in the vast (as big as USA), often mountainous terrain where the insurgents was/is living and operating. 

UK did and still does due to the very small geographic area and population (120 km x 70 km / 800 000 civil population). The police could had nicked every single one of  these insurgents and their supporters in less than 72 hours if UK was a police state. Easy job.   

But I like your political ideas, Equality 7-2521. Unfortunate, they are as realistic as my attempts to get a flying carpets business of the ground. 





It's a shame they didn't nick the mastermind behind the 7/7 bombings. He was a known AQ operative, and it's believed was a double agent for MI6. It's on public record that the CIA and FBI had asked us to hand him over, and our government refused. The British police were looking for him, but the intelligence services knew where he was, and valued him as an informer. The day before 7/7 he travelled unhindered to Heathrow airport, where he boarded a plane - unhindered - to Pakistan. On arrival there he was arrested trying to come through immigration, and thrown in jail. 48 hours later - and after the London bombings he was released, and returned to the UK.

I guess this may be part of the reason why MI5 is so reluctant to share intelligence with recent 7/7 inquest, and of course, as you would expect they don't have to share it with anyone other than the coroner, in the name of 'national security'


Andy, do you have a source for this?  I'm curious.
Back to Top
Slartibartfast View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam

Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2010 at 14:23
http://livebandgigs.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/the_police-600.jpg
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
Back to Top
Ronnie Pilgrim View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 09 2010
Location: The South of TX
Status: Offline
Points: 771 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2010 at 15:53
I was reminded of this photo of  a laundry worker standing before an Alvis FV107 Scimitar in Trafalgar Square when I first read this topic.



C'mon! This is a JJ thread...how can I be serious?



Edited by Ronnie Pilgrim - November 06 2010 at 16:11
Back to Top
Blacksword View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2010 at 18:37
Originally posted by James James wrote:


Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by toroddfuglesteg toroddfuglesteg wrote:




Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:


Originally posted by toroddfuglesteg toroddfuglesteg wrote:

The Northern Ireland conflict is the best proof that UK is not a police state. If UK really was a police state, the insurgents and a substantial part of the local population would had been subdued into submission and/or erased.

So Mao's China wasn't a police state? An insurgency existing could even be argued to be evidence for a police state.


Get the facts right, please. 

The difference is that the Chinese did not have the name and addresses of every insurgents in the vast (as big as USA), often mountainous terrain where the insurgents was/is living and operating. 

UK did and still does due to the very small geographic area and population (120 km x 70 km / 800 000 civil population). The police could had nicked every single one of  these insurgents and their supporters in less than 72 hours if UK was a police state. Easy job.   

But I like your political ideas, Equality 7-2521. Unfortunate, they are as realistic as my attempts to get a flying carpets business of the ground. 





It's a shame they didn't nick the mastermind behind the 7/7 bombings. He was a known AQ operative, and it's believed was a double agent for MI6. It's on public record that the CIA and FBI had asked us to hand him over, and our government refused. The British police were looking for him, but the intelligence services knew where he was, and valued him as an informer. The day before 7/7 he travelled unhindered to Heathrow airport, where he boarded a plane - unhindered - to Pakistan. On arrival there he was arrested trying to come through immigration, and thrown in jail. 48 hours later - and after the London bombings he was released, and returned to the UK.

I guess this may be part of the reason why MI5 is so reluctant to share intelligence with recent 7/7 inquest, and of course, as you would expect they don't have to share it with anyone other than the coroner, in the name of 'national security'
Andy, do you have a source for this?  I'm curious.


The only source for this information I've been able to find in the last year or so was a clip of an interview a US intelligence expert, John Loftus, on a Fox news article. I'll try and find the clip on youtube, and post it.

It came to light shortly after the bombings, and although the authorities here never admitted it, the story was covered on the BBC news.
Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
Back to Top
Blacksword View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2010 at 18:44
The interview is featured in this film. If you want to skip over all the Alex Jones stuff, ffwd to around 5:50 for the John Loftus interview on Fox.

Alex Jones film 7/7 Bombings

Although, according to a Wikipedia page, Aswat, was actually arrested in Zambia, after the bombings, deported to the UK and arrested on his return.

I'm having trouble with links right now, so here's the URL for that if you want to copy and paste..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haroon_Rashid_Aswat





Edited by Blacksword - November 06 2010 at 19:00
Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
Back to Top
JJLehto View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2010 at 18:46
Originally posted by Ronnie Pilgrim Ronnie Pilgrim wrote:

I was reminded of this photo of  a laundry worker standing before an Alvis FV107 Scimitar in Trafalgar Square when I first read this topic.



C'mon! This is a JJ thread...how can I be serious?



I used to make serious threads all the time! Shocked
Granted it hasn't been done in like 3 years, so I was feeling nostalgic LOL
Back to Top
Ronnie Pilgrim View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 09 2010
Location: The South of TX
Status: Offline
Points: 771 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2010 at 20:07
^ Not dissing you, man. I like your humor. Thumbs Up

Edited by Ronnie Pilgrim - November 06 2010 at 20:09
Back to Top
JJLehto View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2010 at 21:13
Originally posted by Ronnie Pilgrim Ronnie Pilgrim wrote:

^ Not dissing you, man. I like your humor. Thumbs Up

What!?

Now I know you're messing with me Tongue
And I havn't seen you around too much, especially where I hang.
I fear my reputation on this site is not good LOL
Back to Top
Ronnie Pilgrim View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 09 2010
Location: The South of TX
Status: Offline
Points: 771 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2010 at 21:32
^ Okay, yeah. You're a Giants fan. But I forgive you, LOL Ouch

Edited by Ronnie Pilgrim - November 06 2010 at 21:33
Back to Top
Neil View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 04 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1497 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2010 at 01:49
I don't think that the UK is at all a police state.  Some politicians (strangely those who tend to associate themselves with the left) seem to want more and more state control using things like ID cards but the opposition of the public and the advent of the new coalition government has recently scrapped that idea.  The fact that you can openly call the prime minister a complete idiot or ridicule government policy on national TV and not attract any police attention tends to suggest that it's not a police state.
 
Modern technology means that more and more people will know more and more about everyone else and this can give increasing power to the state via huge databases of who did what and when but I get the feeling that the British will only tolerate encroaches into their personal freedom up to a point. 
When people get lost in thought it's often because it's unfamiliar territory.
Back to Top
ExittheLemming View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11420 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2010 at 01:58
Originally posted by Neil Neil wrote:

I don't think that the UK is at all a police state.  Some politicians (strangely those who tend to associate themselves with the left) seem to want more and more state control using things like ID cards but the opposition of the public and the advent of the new coalition government has recently scrapped that idea.  The fact that you can openly call the prime minister a complete idiot or ridicule government policy on national TV and not attract any police attention tends to suggest that it's not a police state.
 
Modern technology means that more and more people will know more and more about everyone else and this can give increasing power to the state via huge databases of who did what and when but I get the feeling that the British will only tolerate encroaches into their personal freedom up to a point. 


Interesting points and I'm in broad general agreement with you. Let's avail ourselves of the disingenuous 'populist' card for a moment: Given that the significantly greater portion of the UK populace have embraced the infinite types of 'reality' shows endemic on the airways over the last few years, (the ratings don't lie) haven't they just unwittingly endorsed the outlawing of privacy? (The latter now being deemed just another spectator sport) I find that a tad depressing.
Back to Top
Blacksword View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2010 at 03:53
Originally posted by Neil Neil wrote:

I don't think that the UK is at all a police state.  Some politicians (strangely those who tend to associate themselves with the left) seem to want more and more state control using things like ID cards but the opposition of the public and the advent of the new coalition government has recently scrapped that idea.  The fact that you can openly call the prime minister a complete idiot or ridicule government policy on national TV and not attract any police attention tends to suggest that it's not a police state.
 

Modern technology means that more and more people will know more and more about everyone else and this can give increasing power to the state via huge databases of who did what and when but I get the feeling that the British will only tolerate encroaches into their personal freedom up to a point. 


It's my view that any population, including us Brits, who are no better than anyone else, would under certain circumstances give up their freedoms in exchange for security. Neither the US or the UK, or any government in the west, know that that they will be able to suddenly impose a police state on their people without significant bloodshed. There needs to a good reason for it to happen, in the eyes of the people. The people have to ask for it. A major terror attack could change everything as we know it, forever. An attack that makes 9/11 look small, would permanently change the way we do things here or abroad. The CIA and MI5 have been saying for the best part of a decade now, that this WILL happen at some point.
Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2010 at 03:58
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by Neil Neil wrote:

I don't think that the UK is at all a police state.  Some politicians (strangely those who tend to associate themselves with the left) seem to want more and more state control using things like ID cards but the opposition of the public and the advent of the new coalition government has recently scrapped that idea.  The fact that you can openly call the prime minister a complete idiot or ridicule government policy on national TV and not attract any police attention tends to suggest that it's not a police state.
 
Modern technology means that more and more people will know more and more about everyone else and this can give increasing power to the state via huge databases of who did what and when but I get the feeling that the British will only tolerate encroaches into their personal freedom up to a point. 


Interesting points and I'm in broad general agreement with you. Let's avail ourselves of the disingenuous 'populist' card for a moment: Given that the significantly greater portion of the UK populace have embraced the infinite types of 'reality' shows endemic on the airways over the last few years, (the ratings don't lie) haven't they just unwittingly endorsed the outlawing of privacy? (The latter now being deemed just another spectator sport) I find that a tad depressing.
Reality TV is nationalised voyeurism, which is just a variant of rubber-necking a traffic accident and the ancient pastime of curtain-twitching (chicken and egg - were curtains invented to protect privacy or to facilitate neighbourhood snooping?). Humans are nosey by nature, taking pleasure in spying on people is not the same as endorsing being spied upon.
 
As Bonio sang: "Well tonight thank god it's them instead of you"


Edited by Dean - November 07 2010 at 03:59
What?
Back to Top
ExittheLemming View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11420 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2010 at 05:03
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by Neil Neil wrote:

I don't think that the UK is at all a police state.  Some politicians (strangely those who tend to associate themselves with the left) seem to want more and more state control using things like ID cards but the opposition of the public and the advent of the new coalition government has recently scrapped that idea.  The fact that you can openly call the prime minister a complete idiot or ridicule government policy on national TV and not attract any police attention tends to suggest that it's not a police state.
 
Modern technology means that more and more people will know more and more about everyone else and this can give increasing power to the state via huge databases of who did what and when but I get the feeling that the British will only tolerate encroaches into their personal freedom up to a point. 


Interesting points and I'm in broad general agreement with you. Let's avail ourselves of the disingenuous 'populist' card for a moment: Given that the significantly greater portion of the UK populace have embraced the infinite types of 'reality' shows endemic on the airways over the last few years, (the ratings don't lie) haven't they just unwittingly endorsed the outlawing of privacy? (The latter now being deemed just another spectator sport) I find that a tad depressing.
Reality TV is nationalised voyeurism, which is just a variant of rubber-necking a traffic accident and the ancient pastime of curtain-twitching (chicken and egg - were curtains invented to protect privacy or to facilitate neighbourhood snooping?). Humans are nosey by nature, taking pleasure in spying on people is not the same as endorsing being spied upon.
 
As Bonio sang: "Well tonight thank god it's them instead of you"


No-one wants to be in a car accident, hundreds of thousands of people want to appear on reality TV shows and would gladly sacrifice their privacy for a chance to grasp fame at any cost no matter how fleeting the latter turned out to be. This is a social malaise and not just the innate nosiness of the humanoid critter.
As old fashioned as it might sound, there was a time when people were famous for actually doing something that required considerably more unique ability than that possessed by an entire demographic of talentless self publicists. 'Famous for being famous' is the calling card of the modern celebrity nobodies
(God I'm starting to sound like my Dad) Confused
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 678910 11>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.441 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.