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Topic ClosedThe Stranglers???
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Poll Question: Are the Stranglers Eligible for this sight as a classic progger?
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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2008 at 13:34
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

alas, there are a lot of bands in here which in my opinion should never have been suggested, and yet they were included. I could, for example, never understand the inclusion of "Steely Dan" (they don't even belong into prog-related, in my honest opinion), but they were voted in, and I have to live with it. the Stranglers I could live with easily though (and I have explained why).
 
I agree with you there, as a fact I didn't kept silent when added, but now they are in, I won't say anything more.

it is quite interesting that Ivan shifts them from Punk to New Wave (Not truth as you will see at the end of this post), a sticker which in my opinion fits on them even less. New Wave was a genre that tried to ban emotion from music; it is not for nothing that Kraftwerk was cited as main influence by many New Wave bands. but whatever you can say about the Stranglers, you can hardly accuse them of trying to be emotionless
 
First Jean, New Wave is part of Punk, a sub-genre if you want, so I can't see where is the lack of emotion.
 
I don't believe bands as OMD with the dramatic "Enola Gay", Mecano with "Barco a Venus" or even B-52 with "Private Idaho" are emotionless and never said that Stranglers lack of emotion, I don't care what peope say about New Wave, I guide myself by my ears.
 
People may believe whatever they want, but read Cert's post, in the only issue we agree is that Stranglers have a New Wave sound (he believes more elaborate, I don't)
 
Iván
 
BTW: Jean, please don't accuse me of moving from Punk to New Wave, since my first post on Oct. 12 at 14:39 I mentioned New Wave:
 
Quote BTW: The Stranglers is not  a pure Punk band, also a New Wave band and New Wave is the second or third stage of Punk, the genre merged with mainstream and even though they had more than 3 chords, they kept being post Punk bands.
 
You can verify it on page 4 of this same thread, I always stay faithful to what I believe.



Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 14 2008 at 13:42
            
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2008 at 14:02
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

alas, there are a lot of bands in here which in my opinion should never have been suggested, and yet they were included. I could, for example, never understand the inclusion of "Steely Dan" (they don't even belong into prog-related, in my honest opinion), but they were voted in, and I have to live with it. the Stranglers I could live with easily though (and I have explained why).
 
I agree with you there, as a fact I didn't kept silent when added, but now they are in, I won't say anything more.

it is quite interesting that Ivan shifts them from Punk to New Wave (Not truth as you will see at the end of this post), a sticker which in my opinion fits on them even less. New Wave was a genre that tried to ban emotion from music; it is not for nothing that Kraftwerk was cited as main influence by many New Wave bands. but whatever you can say about the Stranglers, you can hardly accuse them of trying to be emotionless
 
First Jean, New Wave is part of Punk, a sub-genre if you want, so I can't see where is the lack of emotion.
 
I don't believe bands as OMD with the dramatic "Enola Gay", Mecano with "Barco a Venus" or even B-52 with "Private Idaho" are emotionless and never said that Stranglers lack of emotion, I don't care what peope say about New Wave, I guide myself by my ears.
 
People may believe whatever they want, but read Cert's post, in the only issue we agree is that Stranglers have a New Wave sound (he believes more elaborate, I don't)
 
Iván
 
BTW: Jean, please don't accuse me of moving from Punk to New Wave, since my first post on Oct. 12 at 14:39 I mentioned New Wave:
 
Quote BTW: The Stranglers is not  a pure Punk band, also a New Wave band and New Wave is the second or third stage of Punk, the genre merged with mainstream and even though they had more than 3 chords, they kept being post Punk bands.
 
You can verify it on page 4 of this same thread, I always stay faithful to what I believe.


I disagree about New Wave being the second or third stage of Punk; the two genres have very little to do with each other, if anything at all. there are so many differences between the two genres that it is hardly necessary to list them all, but I will nevertheless name some of the main differences:
1) Punk was a guitar driven music, New Wave is more keyboard dominated. the keyboards, however, are mostly synthesizers. distorted guitars are something which you will very rarely find in New Wave; New Wave definitely prefers a "clean" sound.
2) contrary to Punk, New Wave often uses drum machines instead of real drums. you will also find electronic percussion in New Wave, but not in Punk.
3) the use of sequencers is also something that you will find in New Wave, but not in Punk.
4) the lyrics are often delivered with rather emotionless voice.
as I said, it is not surprising at all that many New Wave bands cite Kraftwerk as their main influence; the features above all seem to describe Kraftwerk to a T. but how do the Stranglers fit into that? not at all; even the punk sticker sits better on them
I don't really see how the Stranglers it into NEw Wave


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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2008 at 14:12
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:


I disagree about New Wave being the second or third stage of Punk; the two genres have very little to do with each other, if anything at all. there are so many differences between the two genres that it is hardly necessary to list them all, but I will nevertheless name some of the main differences:
1) Punk was a guitar driven music, New Wave is more keyboard dominated. the keyboards, however, are mostly synthesizers. distorted guitars are something which you will very rarely find in New Wave; New Wave definitely prefers a "clean" sound.
2) contrary to Punk, New Wave often uses drum machines instead of real drums. you will also find electronic percussion in New Wave, but not in Punk.
3) the use of sequencers is also something that you will find in New Wave, but not in Punk.
4) the lyrics are often delivered with rather emotionless voice.
as I said, it is not surprising at all that many New Wave bands cite Kraftwerk as their main influence; the features above all seem to describe Kraftwerk to a T. but how do the Stranglers fit into that? not at all; even the punk sticker sits better on them
I don't really see how the Stranglers it into NEw Wave
 
There the opinions are unanymous or almost unanymous, New Wave is a stage of Punk.
 
Punk was too basic for most people, so it soon blended with other sounds to create New Age. Yes they used keyboards but that's called evolution of a genre.
 
A>s a fact few people would believe Symphonic has any relation with RIO, but both are Prog, in the same way New Wave is a sub-genre of Punk.
 
You can check this anywhere.
 
Iván
 
 
 


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 14 2008 at 14:15
            
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2008 at 14:27
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:


I disagree about New Wave being the second or third stage of Punk; the two genres have very little to do with each other, if anything at all. there are so many differences between the two genres that it is hardly necessary to list them all, but I will nevertheless name some of the main differences:
1) Punk was a guitar driven music, New Wave is more keyboard dominated. the keyboards, however, are mostly synthesizers. distorted guitars are something which you will very rarely find in New Wave; New Wave definitely prefers a "clean" sound.
2) contrary to Punk, New Wave often uses drum machines instead of real drums. you will also find electronic percussion in New Wave, but not in Punk.
3) the use of sequencers is also something that you will find in New Wave, but not in Punk.
4) the lyrics are often delivered with rather emotionless voice.
as I said, it is not surprising at all that many New Wave bands cite Kraftwerk as their main influence; the features above all seem to describe Kraftwerk to a T. but how do the Stranglers fit into that? not at all; even the punk sticker sits better on them
I don't really see how the Stranglers it into NEw Wave
 
There the opinions are unanymous or almost unanymous, New Wave is a stage of Punk.
 
Punk was too basic for most people, so it soon blended with other sounds to create New Age. Yes they used keyboards but that's called evolution of a genre.
 
A>s a fact few people would believe Symphonic has any relation with RIO, but both are Prog, in the same way New Wave is a sub-genre of Punk.
 
You can check this anywhere.
 
Iván

Ivan, you are definitely wrong about that. I will not deny that New Wave emerged from Punk, but they have very little to do with each other.
as to "you can check this anywhere": I did; and I recommend you read this Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Wave_music


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Points: 782 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2008 at 14:45
Well, I've checked, and I haven't found any credible site that tells me New Wave is a stage of Punk. Oh yes, one could take a quote or two out of context (let me do so to save anyone else the trouble: "For a while in 1976 and 1977 the terms punk and new wave were largely interchangeable. By 1978, things were beginning to change, although the dividing line between punk and new wave was never very clear,"  Joynson, Vernon (2001). Up Yours! A Guide to UK Punk, New Wave & Early Post Punk. Wolverhampton: Borderline Publications, p.12, sourced from Wikipedia). But that's not the same as saying one was a stage of the other. Was prog a stage of psychedelica?

"It soon blended with other sounds to create New Age". That makes a little more sense if you meant "New Wave", though I'd argue that New Wave certainly only took on aspects of Punk's sound and none of its ethos.. But again that's not the same as saying one was a stage of the other.

Having been a fan amongst fans of New Wave, I can tell you our view was that while we could see that Punk was one of its antecedents, New Wave had a vast number of other influences. Electronica, disco, glam rock and ska were all at least as important as Punk, and of course pop music was the single biggest influence. There's even prog influences in there at times - listen to U2's 'Unforgettable Fire'.

The easiest identifiable (but not most important) difference between punk and New Wave was the unsophisticated garage-band sound of punk and the more polished 80s production of New Wave. These are the antithesis of each other. In this respect New Wave was a reaction against Punk!

Those who believe OMD only wrote throwaway pop songs (note: I've added the 'only' here, I know no-one here said exactly that) might have their views challenged by a careful listen to the contract-breaking album 'Dazzle Ships', an album containing a substantial amount of musique concrete material. Go on, go and listen to it. Perhaps I could encourage you by quoting part of Allmusic's review:

"OMD's glistening run of top-flight singles and chart domination came to a temporary but dramatic halt with Dazzle Ships, the point where the band's pushing of boundaries reached their furthest limit ... a couple of moments aside, Dazzle Ships is pop of the most fragmented kind, a concept album released in an era that had nothing to do with such conceits. On its own merits, though, it is dazzling indeed, a Kid A of its time that never received a comparative level of contemporary attention and appreciation. Indeed, Radiohead's own plunge into abstract electronics and meditations on biological and technological advances seems to be echoing the themes and construction of Dazzle Ships" (AllMusic.com).

After the hostile reception this album suffered OMD went ultra-commercial with variable results.

Yes, punk antecedents can be heard. But there's far more Kraftwerk and disco and pop than punk. New Wave a stage of Punk? I'm having trouble with that one!


Edited by russellk - October 14 2008 at 14:47
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2008 at 16:35

^ Absolutely Clap 

Many of the New Wave acts of the early eighties have clear Art Rock influences that have little or no connection with Punk Rock. Some of those bands even started out as Art Rock bands and some were briefly lumped in with the Punk movement due to the rawer non-Pop sound, but the association was short-lived and they merged into the all encompassing New Wave tag that covered everything from 2-Tone ska to Synthpop (it even included Power Pop - a "genre" that started with The Who in the mid-60s... and hence the inclusion of Mod Revival bands like The Jam and Secret Affair).
 
Also, New Wave itself had different meanings to different people at the time, the stalwarts at the BBC believed that any that band who released a single in a picture sleeve was New Wave and therefore unsuitable for the Radio 1 playlist, whereas in the USA the term was used to get bands on to the radio station playlists.
What?
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Points: 65266 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2008 at 17:51
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

the stalwarts at the BBC believed that any that band who released a single in a picture sleeve was New Wave and therefore unsuitable for the Radio 1 playlist, whereas in the USA the term was used to get bands on to the radio station playlists.


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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2008 at 18:09
This is very funny, when in the Prog punk thread everybody claimed that New Wave was punk, now there are others who deny this. LOL
 
New Wave may have as many influences as you  want, merged with other genres, but it's essentially a Post Punk genre.
 
And even when I don't trust Wikipedia, I will go to the same article you mentioned Jean:
 
Quote

New Wave is a rock music genre that existed during the late 1970s and the 1980s. It emerged from punk rock as a reaction against the popular music of the 1970s. New Wave incorporated various influences such as the rock 'n' roll styles of the pre-hippie era, ska, reggae, power pop, the mod subculture, electronic music, disco, funk, etc.

 
It's clear that it's main source is Punk
 
But that's not all:
 
Quote

The term New Wave itself is a source of much confusion. It was introduced in 1976 in Great Britain by Sex Pistols manager Malcolm McLaren as an alternative label for what was also being called "punk". The term referenced the avant-garde, stylish French New Wave film movement of the 1960s. The label was soon picked up by British punk fanzines such as Sniffin' Glue and then the professional music press.[1] Thus, the term "New Wave" was initially interchangeable with "punk".[2]

 
Again they are clear,. first it was interchageable....Exactly as Art Rock, first was interchangeable with Prog and then became a sub-genre.
 
Quote

Music that followed the anarchic garage band ethos of the Sex Pistols was distinguished as "punk", while music that tended toward experimentation, lyrical complexity, or more polished production, was categorised as "New Wave". This came to include musicians who had come to prominence in the British pub rock scene of the mid-1970s, such as Ian Dury, Nick Lowe, Eddie and the Hot Rods and Dr Feelgood;  acts associated with the New York club CBGBs, such as Television, Patti Smith, and Blondie; and singer-songwriters who were noted for their barbed lyrical wit, such as Elvis Costello, Tom Robinson and Joe Jackson. Furthermore, many artists who would have originally been classified as punk were also termed New Wave. A 1977 Phonogram compilation album of the same name (New Wave) features US artists including the Dead Boys, Ramones, Talking Heads and The Runaways.

 
All of the above mentioned were PUNK bands, they mixed various elements, but still Punk essentially.
 
But there are other articles:
 
Quote The most direct forerunner to today's "Alternative" music, New Wave was the more arty and less angry step-sibling of Punk in the late 1970s and early '80s. New Wave is an incredibly broad umbrella term, counting the herky-jerky rhythms of the Talking Heads, the white reggae of the Police, the gritty songwriting of Elvis Costello, and the shrewd Synthesizer Pop of New Order among its countless disparate sounds. New Wave artists took considerable energy and moxie from Punk and applied it to their own work in unique ways. Costello for instance, looked anything but Punk in his Buddy Holly eyeglasses, and wrote music whose cleverness was more reminiscent of the Beatles than the Sex Pistols or the Ramones. But his Post-Punk sensibility combined with his ability to pull off rock songs and ballads made him a quintessential New Wave performer.  
 
 
Or
 
Quote Definition: New Wave is a kinder, gentler, more commercially successful form of Punk Rock. In fact, it evolved from, and eventually replaced punk
 
.
Also Known As: Punk Rock
 
Examples: Devo, Talking Heads, The Police, The Cars, The Go-Go’s
 
 
or maybe
 
Quote Consider, for example, that both the rockabilly band The Stray Cats and the futuristic technogeek band Devo are both considered new wave. Part of the problem stems from the fact that punk rock, which was the "first wave," was very easily hybridized with other forms of music (reggae, rockabilly, disco, eurodisco) to produce many "second" or "new wave" varieties and styles
 
As I said, a hybrid form of Punk
 
Lets see how some famous New Wave bands are classified
  1. Ths same page you mention Jean mentions Blondie as New Wave, so check http://www.punk77.co.uk/groups/blondie.htm Oops, also in Punk77 as Punk icon
  2. Lets se OMD: Post-Punk &  New Wave http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:39fpxq9gldfe
  3. Talking Heads: New Wave, Post-Punk, New York Punk, American Punk http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&searchlink=TALKING|HEADS&sql=11:hifoxqr5ldae~T1
  4. B-52: New Wave  Post-Punk http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:aifoxqw5ldae
  5. The Boomtown Rats: New Wave, Punk, British Punk http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:jifrxqw5ldde  But that's not all, check Punk77 and there you will find a whole page about The Boomtown Rats

You can search all the web for New Wave bands, and you will  find an almost  complete identity with Post Punk.

And now lets see the starting point;
 
The Stranglers:
 
 
Oops, they are also catalogued as New Wave and Punk. http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:fifrxqr5ldae
 
Nobody can deny the relation between New Wave and Punk, may be more artsy, have more influences, but essentially is a sub-genre of Punk.
 
Iván

 



Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 14 2008 at 18:15
            
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2008 at 18:29
But, what's the point of his now?
 
1.- We already voted  abd the votes are clearly against the inclusion (Not that this matters too much)
2.- We gave our opinions. Some in favor, others against.
 
Now it's in the Crossover team hands, they have the last word, nothing we say will convince the other side or the team, they will decide.
 
Lets leave them peace to decide.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 14 2008 at 18:30
            
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Points: 158 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2008 at 19:02
Great band, progressive new wave, but not prog. in strict definition, IMO.
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Points: 782 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2008 at 21:13
There's no doubt that New Wave was influenced by various stands of the punk genre. The Wikipedia article makes that clear. And no one denies the connection. But, as I said ad nauseum in my previous post, that's a long way from saying that New Wave is a stage of Punk.

And as for leaving people in peace to decide things, that's rather a cop-out. Had I not moseyed on to this thread I wouldn't have bought a Stranglers album. What's wrong with continuing the discussion?
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2008 at 22:14
Originally posted by russellk russellk wrote:

There's no doubt that New Wave was influenced by various stands of the punk genre. The Wikipedia article makes that clear. And no one denies the connection. But, as I said ad nauseum in my previous post, that's a long way from saying that New Wave is a stage of Punk.
 
That's a matter of opinions Russelk, other sites that I quoted say it's almost a synonymous, even Wikipedia (The ledsscreliable of all, being that it can be edited by anybody) says that both terms were interchangeable.
Quote Definition: New Wave is a kinder, gentler, more commercially successful form of Punk Rock. In fact, it evolved from, and eventually replaced punk
 
 
Or other stes that qualify New Wave bands as Punk, POst punk, British Punk also....And believe me, I trust more in any place rather than Wikipedia (I said it in my first post).

And as for leaving people in peace to decide things, that's rather a cop-out. Had I not moseyed on to this thread I wouldn't have bought a Stranglers album. What's wrong with continuing the discussion?
 
Good for you and for The Stranglers who are going to collect some royalties, but as long as it's decided if they are Prog or not, it's not the function of Prog Archives, unless we are at the General music section.
 
Iván
 


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 14 2008 at 22:19
            
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2008 at 23:13
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by russellk russellk wrote:

There's no doubt that New Wave was influenced by various stands of the punk genre. The Wikipedia article makes that clear. And no one denies the connection. But, as I said ad nauseum in my previous post, that's a long way from saying that New Wave is a stage of Punk.
 
That's a matter of opinions Russelk, other sites that I quoted say it's almost a synonymous, even Wikipedia (The ledsscreliable of all, being that it can be edited by anybody) says that both terms were interchangeable.
Quote Definition: New Wave is a kinder, gentler, more commercially successful form of Punk Rock. In fact, it evolved from, and eventually replaced punk
 
 
Or other stes that qualify New Wave bands as Punk, POst punk, British Punk also....And believe me, I trust more in any place rather than Wikipedia (I said it in my first post).

And as for leaving people in peace to decide things, that's rather a cop-out. Had I not moseyed on to this thread I wouldn't have bought a Stranglers album. What's wrong with continuing the discussion?
 
Good for you and for The Stranglers who are going to collect some royalties, but as long as it's decided if they are Prog or not, it's not the function of Prog Archives, unless we are at the General music section.
 
Iván
 

Ivan, Wikipedia is indeed very credible, just due to the very fact that anybody can correct articles there. believe me, incorrect articles don't survive for long in there. and there have been studies that proved that Wikipedia is as trustworthy as any well-reputed encyclopedia. there just was a recent study in Germany that compared Wikipedia with Brockhaus. the fact that anybody can write in there makes Wikipedia based on a larger number of experts than any publishing house of an encyclopedia could afford to pay. a self-proclaimed "classic rock" site, on the other hand, does not seem to be very trustworthy to me.
but you don't even have to believe me, Ivan. go ahead and write your opinion about New Wave in Wikipedia and see how long it will survive.
and if, after that, you still don't believe it, how about trying the Encyclopedia Brittanica for a change?
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/412228/new-wave
or is the Encyclopedia Brittanica not trustworthy either?


Edited by BaldJean - October 14 2008 at 23:45


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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 15 2008 at 00:25
If you say Wikipedia is so reliable:Wink
 
 
Seems that Wikipedia, defines New Age as Punk transformed LOL In other words A LATER INCARNATION of Punk, and the article implies much more relations.
 

Plus the Britannica Encyclopedia says in the article you quote:

Quote Although punk was pronounced dead (though it later would inspire grunge and alternative), the music and fashion sensibilities of new wave continued to influence pop music through the 1990s.

 
Can they be more ambiguous?
 
Why do they mentoon New Wave as carrying the sensibilities of Punk?, Because the reference implies that, if not, Punk would not be mentioned.
 
We all know this is not accurate, it transformed and barely survived, but 1980 is not the end of Punk.

As a fact in school they never allowed us to present homeworks based in Encyclopedia, they asked for specialized books, they belived Ecyclopedias were barely referential and absolutely incomplete 

Iván



Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 15 2008 at 00:32
            
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 15 2008 at 00:38
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

If you say Wikipedia is so reliable:Wink
 
 
Seems that Wikipedia, defines New Age as Punk transformed LOL In other words A LATER INCARNATION of Punk, and the article implies much more relations.
 
 
We all know this is not accirate, it transformed and barely survicved, bbut 1980 is not the end of Punk.
 
As a fact in school they never allopwed us to present homeworks based in Encyclopedia, they asked for specialized books.
 
Iván

Ivan, that's exactly what I said: New Wave had its roots in Punk, but it no longer IS Punk. you might as well say "Prog is Psychedelic", just because some of the origins of prog lie there. New Wave evolved into something completely different. another root of New Wave definitely is the electronic pop a la Kraftwerk.
as to those people who said the Stranglers called themselves punk: listen to the interview with Hugh Cornwell here, in which he more or less says they didn't give a damn what they were called, they just wanted to play their music:
http://club.kingsnake.com/index.php/archives/354-Podcast-SXSW-Artist-Spotlight-Interview-Hugh-Cornwell.html


Edited by BaldJean - October 15 2008 at 00:46


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Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:


Ivan, that's exactly what I said: New Wave had its roots in Punk, but it no longer IS Punk. you might as well say "Prog is Psychedelic", just because some of the origins of prog lie there.
 
No it works in the other way, some Psyche is also Prog, Psyche evolved into Prog as Punk evolved into New Age.
 
New Wave evolved into something completely different. another root of New Wave definitely is the electronic pop a la Kraftwerk.
 
Please Jean, only made it poppier and commercial, added some synths , but both have a lot of elements in common,

as to those people who said the Stranglers called themselves punk: listen to the interview with Hugh Cornwell here, in which he more or less says they didn't give a damn what they were called, they just wanted to play their music:
http://club.kingsnake.com/index.php/archives/354-Podcast-SXSW-Artist-Spotlight-Interview-Hugh-Cornwell.html
 
But the other members call themselves Punk.

But again,. lets not worry anymore, this is in hands of the Xover team.

Iván
            
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 15 2008 at 04:53
As I said earlier, there is no problem with considering The Stranglers New Wave, Punk or whatever - their music is ALSO Progressive.
 
It's ALL OF THESE THINGS, just like Hawkwind have a strong punk element, as do Here and Now, both of whom frequently played at "Anarchist" festivals in the late 1970s - mid 1980s, alongside bands such as Solstice, Pendragon, The Ozric Tentacles, The Magic Mushroom Band, Treatment, The Herb Garden, Subhumans, Culture Shock, Citizen Fish and a whole load of other Punk/Hippy/Psyche bands of that time.
 
A lot of people that listened to the latter bands also listened to the Stranglers, because their music is a good fit.
 
Let's not get bogged down trying to pigeon-hole the un pigeon-holeable and waste forum space trying to define New Wave, or have straw-man polls in order to what? Prove that the Stranglers were part of that scene, or that other people disagree on association basis rather than rational musical acceptance? This proves nothing about the music.
 
Much of their music is Progressive, no matter what scene they were part of, and that's a fact.
 
...I'll definitely revisit OMD, as I appear to have stereotyped them based on the comparatively little I've heard of them... Embarrassed
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Points: 9669 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 15 2008 at 08:38
As i indicated before, I strongly believe that adding the Stranglers would not only cause an uproar, but would result in many calls for other bands from that era (loosely connected under the 'new wave" banner), who also exhibited top-notch musicianship, and imaginative songs & arrangements. Is this where we are going, listing all good rock/pop?
 
A few of the more obvious examples would be:
 
Echo and the Bunnymen -- check out the presence of Shankar on the very sophisticated Porcupine, and the full string section on Ocean Rain.
 
XTC -- their sophisticated, ultra-polished and intelligent, inventive pop speaks for itself.
 
Ian Dury and the Blockheads -- so many influences and musical forms, distilled into a heady melange of sounds. An amazing band. They "progressed" our notions of what punk/new wave were, and could do....
 
Nina Hagen -- former East German opera singer, her songs were highly unusual, the vocals were arguably "progressive," and her amazing band could do anything.(In fact, I have a tape of her band Spliff (without Hagen), and the music is to my ears, much closer to "prog" in sound & spirit than much of what is already listed here.
 
Then there was the Tubes -- pre new wave, but arguably a fit, if inventiveness and the incorporation of diverse musical influences and elements are to be a criteria for inclusion.
 
Next, I think you should consider adding Sting. Again, not new wave, but his sophisticated, tasteful and intelligent blend of pop, jazz, Latin, country and other forms, with songs that often range widely in arrangement should make him a serious contender for the retroactive "prog"  treatment here.
 
Shall I continue? There are many other such better-quality new wave acts, but I think another look at many "new age" acts, including Mannheim Steamroller and Andreas Wollenweider, should now be undertaken, in the interest of "fair play" and "inclusiveness." (Many prog fans listened/listen to their music, Cert!)
 
Why not? Metal was made "prog," much jazz was dubbed "prog," we have the supposed "prog folk" of artists like Fairport Convention -- logically, it's time for the prog new wave, prog new age, prog punk, prog ska, prog country, prog bluegrass, etc, etc, etc. Be fair Certified-- above-average artists and "progression" exist in ALL musical genres!
 
You can't just seize upon one one contentious band like the Stranglers, and think that will be and end of it, with no repercussions, no "domino effect." Stern%20Smile
 
 
But again, is this really where we/you want PA to be going?
 
Do Max and Ron get a say? Stern%20Smile
 
 
 
Next on PA Prog Radio will be Watcher of the Skies, followed by... Peaches.
 
^ Yeah -- real unity of sound there -- we self-appointed, ever-arguing experts at PA know what "prog" is -- it just means "good music!"Wacko
 
 


Edited by Peter - October 15 2008 at 08:52
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Points: 12813 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 15 2008 at 08:52
Originally posted by Peter Peter wrote:

 
Next on PA Prog Radio will be Watcher of the Skies, followed by... Peaches.
 
 
 
You've been listening to the Alternative Alternative Show then - we are known to do that pick and mix  thing regularly, e.g. the Tubes in punk mode followed by Krimson... or even Peter Hammill fronting the Stranglers....- and tomorrow you'll discover Johnny Rotten fronting a band that included Ginger Baker and Steve Vai.


Edited by Dick Heath - October 15 2008 at 08:53
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 15 2008 at 16:12
Originally posted by Peter Peter wrote:

As i indicated before, I strongly believe that adding the Stranglers would not only cause an uproar, but would result in many calls for other bands from that era (loosely connected under the 'new wave" banner), who also exhibited top-notch musicianship, and imaginative songs & arrangements. Is this where we are going, listing all good rock/pop?
 
The funny thing is that peopls who induct a band say, "Hey, this won't happen", but it always happens, and in a  more intense way, because a group of members claim that this is an inclusive site and due to the fact that Steely Dan is here, why not Earth Wind & Fire or Stevie Wonder.
 
This people tend to forget this is PROGRESSIVE ROCK SITE, which by EXCEPTION adsmits related bands, and try to make this exceptions the rule.
 
 
Why not? Metal was made "prog," much jazz was dubbed "prog," we have the supposed "prog folk" of artists like Fairport Convention -- logically, it's time for the prog new wave, prog new age, prog punk, prog ska, prog country, prog bluegrass, etc, etc, etc. Be fair Certified-- above-average artists and "progression" exist in ALL musical genres!
 
That's the eternal problem between proigressive and Progressive Rock site.  Prog Archives is a Progressive Rock site and should avoid doubious inclusions, much more Punk or New Wave bands (You can choose) despite how progresive they are in their own genre.
 
If they are not Progressive Rock bands, the decision should be 100% in the Adm team.
 
Iván 
 
            
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