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The Whistler View Drop Down
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Points: 7113 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2008 at 02:55
Uh, lemme think, High Tide? Gravy Train maybe? I'm going off what I've heard of, rather than what I've heard, at this point.
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you're all drunk
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^ LOL
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Kansas
Nektar
Amboy Dukes   Led to Ted Nugent.................


Yardbirds

Edited by KrakAtack - April 11 2008 at 03:03
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Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

you're all drunk


 
You cna't prove that!!!!!
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Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

What other aspects of Prog Metal do you think we should be tracing back, apart from guitar techniques and formal complexity?


notably higher ambition, musical competency and musicological/historical understanding in rock and roll..  as I've said many times on this forum without too much shame, I believe Brian Wilson was the grandfather of progressive rock music, the first popular artist to truly take rock seriously, to record it with greater care and with an emphasis on modern technologies, infuse other musics with authenticity, not to mention a major move toward experimentalism and avant garde, i.e. Smiley Smile (1967)   ..other influences may point at the earlier heavy psych bands as well

 
Well... the "higher ambition" and "musical competency" seems to be mainly in the guitar techniques and formal approaches.
 
In this, we've covered precision and attention to detail in soloing technique:
 
Schenker and Roth seem to the the earliest pioneers, which puts the Scorpions and UFO at the base - but I would also consider Gary Moore among their number, hence my earlier mentioning of Thin Lizzy and Skid Row (the band Moore and Lynott were in before Lizzy, NOT the 1980s band!).
 
"musicological/historical understanding in rock and roll" is a tricky one - the Beatles were fully aware of their roots, started out as a Skiffle band (can't get much more traditional) and covered Chuck Berry alongside the other classics on their early albums.
 
It's not really specific enough - Elvis sang a lot of traditional gospel music, AC/DC's music is rooted in Chuck Berry and the blues... where do we draw lines, or at least, fuzzy edges?
 
As for Wilson, personally I'm of the opinion that Martin was a greater studio innovator, and the Beatles were more innovative with their sounds... but I think that's a different discussion Wink
 
 
Originally posted by BigHairyMonster BigHairyMonster wrote:

Well, if we must insist upon playing with boxes...

Why is it that we need an exact time, date, band an album to refer to as the beginning of prog metal.
 
Doesn't have to be exact, and is hardly going to be one person or band - just a set of pioneers. It's interesting, more than anything.
 
Everything else in your post is interesting - but I think that influences are very different to actual pioneers. The essential elements have been explored before in lengthy discussions on the timeline of heavy metal, and all those bands have been mentioned.
 
 
Originally posted by KrakAtack KrakAtack wrote:


Budgie- Never Turn Your Back On A Friend (check out those long form compositions like 'Breadfan' and 'Parents'; their albums are often somewhat inconsistent, however...as an aside, Metallica covered 'Breadfan')


Metallica also covered Crash Course in Brain Surgery and In For The Kill. Budgie definitely takes a lot of points as one of the pioneers. Of course there were many other groups who contributed bits and pieces to the prog heavy metal uprising.....Check out MC5 - High Time, Spontaneous Combustion, Armageddon, Eloy, Hawkwind, Golden Earring, Man, Uriah Heep, Pink Fairies, King Crimson, Mahogany Rush, Lucifer's Friend, Stray, Iron Butterfly, some early Scorpions with Uli John Roth and even some Taste songs.......and, of course, Blue Oyster Cult.........
 
 
Again, an interesting list - all those bands came up in the "History of Heavy Metal" thread - but influences, not pioneers.
 
Budgie are a quite interesting case (although if you look on their album sleeves, they stoically deny being progressive in any shape or form!), but their music centered on streams of bludgeoning riffs, with little or no intention of developing them or creating overly elaborate structures.
 
Pink Fairies (and the whole Ladbroke Grove scene) are of great interest to me - they and Hawkwind created and developed the sound behind Motorhead. But that bunch of sweeties were more dirty road punks than progressive rockers.
 
Of the old school, I'd say Mk II Deep Purple were closest, Sabbath and Zepplin close behind.
 
Obviously it's all rooted in the early "heavy" psych bands, but where the pioneers of the distinct genre are concerned, the music really started to emerge in the late 1970s, early 1980s, along with the "NWOBHM".
 
Heavy Metal underwent a change in the 1980s, from which it's sound and style has *fundamentally* hardly changed to this day. As part of that change, Progressive Metal "appeared" as a logical and natural continuation.
 
It's the pioneers of that change who are, I think, most interesting to this debate more than the earlier pioneers of metal or heavy music in general.
 
 
 
If anyone's kept up with that lot, here's a bonus Wink;
 
On the subject of technical guitarists, one guy that gets overlooked more often than not is Akira Takasaki of the Japanese band Loudness.
 
I think the reason he gets overlooked is that Loudness' songs are possibly not that amazing - I hear many of them as a pale imitation of the Scorpions (YMMV, of course). As a guitarist, Takasaki was famed for his tapping technique. Check him out - but skip to the solos. In case the first two songs put you off, the 3rd is MUCH better, IMHO, so skip to that Big%20smile
 
 
 
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Points: 165 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2008 at 04:18
Budgie are a quite interesting case (although if you look on their album sleeves, they stoically deny being progressive in any shape or form!), but their music centered on streams of bludgeoning riffs, with little or no intention of developing them or creating overly elaborate structures.
 
Pink Fairies (and the whole Ladbroke Grove scene) are of great interest to me - they and Hawkwind created and developed the sound behind Motorhead. But that bunch of sweeties were more dirty road punks than progressive rockers.

>>>>>>>>I disagree about Budgie, at least the albums made with Tony Bourge on guitar. That lineup had real feel and varied riff and time changes that were disimilar to and, in my opinion, better than some of the music coming from Sabbath and Zep at the same time. Zep had a lot of classic blues and Yardbirds in their sound. Sabbath was, well Sabbath. Keep in mind that at least one Budgie album was made in the same studio at the same time as Sabbath. As a trio at that time, they were more like Rush. Once Tony Bourge left, then they became hammer metal.
BTW..... Budgie's bass player was a roadie for Metallica for a while before he reformed Budgie................

Pink Fairies on Never Never Land and Kings of Oblivion were much more Prog than at any other time......and Hawkwind was also much more progressive once the speed metal king Lemmy left......although I still like Space Ritual and Hall Of The Mountain King........

http://krakatack.googlepages.com/hawkwind
http://krakatack.googlepages.com/mub3
http://krakatack.googlepages.com/moreunknownbands5
 


Edited by KrakAtack - April 11 2008 at 04:20
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Points: 28057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2008 at 06:00
Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

(From Merriam Webster Dictionary online):

Main Entry:

1pi·o·neer 
Pronunciation:
\ˌpī-ə-ˈnir\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle French pionier, from Old French peonier foot soldier, from peon foot soldier, from Medieval Latin pedon-, pedo — more at pawn
Date:
1523
1: a member of a military unit usually of construction engineers Certainly this one doesn't apply
 
2 a: a person or group that originates or helps open up a new line of thought or activity or a new method or technical development  That ORIGINATES.... therefore, the person or group is PART of the thing it helped ORIGINATE. Therefore, it has to be a progressive-metal band that is the pioneer of progressive-metal. It can be argued that iron Maiden was progressive-metal at times, or (as I do, and others) that Metallica was true 100% progressive-metal at one point... but King Crimson?!?!?!? Rush?!?!?! b: one of the first to settle in a territory Stretching this, we can say that a pioneer is the first to settle in a territory, in a GENRE. So, it's the first that ACTUALLY OCCUPIES that "territory"... King Crimson?!?!?! Rush?!?!?!
 
Oh! Sorry! I mentioned Metallica! How can I say Hetfield and Ulrich had morer influence in something that mighty Fripp???
 
We're talking about progressive-metal pioneers here, not about main influences in progressive-metal pioneers. To be a pioneer you have to be part of the group or whatever that you helped, sigh, pioneering.
 
3: a plant or animal capable of establishing itself in a bare, barren, or open area and initiating an ecological cycle It can be argued that DT did this...Tongue


agreed



I disagree with this definition. We need to petition Merrian-Webster for a more PA discussion-friendly definition.
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Points: 25210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2008 at 07:33
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

you're all drunk

LOL
 
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2008 at 08:03
Originally posted by KrakAtack KrakAtack wrote:


>>>>>>>>I disagree about Budgie, at least the albums made with Tony Bourge on guitar. That lineup had real feel and varied riff and time changes that were disimilar to and, in my opinion, better than some of the music coming from Sabbath and Zep at the same time. Zep had a lot of classic blues and Yardbirds in their sound.
 
I agree that Budgie are an interesting case, but the music doesn't stand up well (as an example of pioneering Prog Metal) to Scorps, UFO or Priest, as they were in the mid 1970s. Budgie sound distinctly old-school, rooted in Yardbirds/Cream/Hendrix - and I'm sure that bands like May Blitz were producing similar music earlier in the 1970s.
 
Some examples to assist with this - I've tried to level the playing field by finding what I think is the most progressive *period* Budgie video I could find;
 
Budgie (1975?); http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dee9njVdnR4&feature=related
Budgie - Breadfan (1975) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54H3EUAzpVg
 
UFO; (1974) - remarkable similarities to Budgie; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8Yi7LfoiTM&feature=related
UFO; (1973) - always good to hear Rock Bottom, and this fast version was posted after my previous YouTube fest; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KRDE-CzRhU&feature=related
UFO; (1975) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgugGgmI_Tw&feature=related - similarities to early Priest.
 
 
You really can't have too much Priest - although there's more progressive stuff on the albums, this is what I dug up.
 
Priest (1975) Dreamer, Deceiver; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFx_kcypAGU&feature=related
Priest (1976) The Ripper; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBRacG5iQXw
Priest (1977) Starbreaker; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3olvyAI0QI&feature=related
Priest (1978) Exciter - The Birth of Thrash; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqFkUPv0WCY&feature=related - notably Budgie influenced in some of the contsructions. As far as I know, the thrash technique went unused in metal until Rhoads used it in Ozzy's "I Don't Know", and later Metal Church inspired an entire scene and genre in SF.
 
and finally...
 
Scorps (1972); http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nTGTCSGj30
Scorps (1977); http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ya5bGthIz4E&feature=related
 
 
Originally posted by KrakAtack KrakAtack wrote:

Sabbath was, well Sabbath. Keep in mind that at least one Budgie album was made in the same studio at the same time as Sabbath. As a trio at that time, they were more like Rush. Once Tony Bourge left, then they became hammer metal.
BTW..... Budgie's bass player was a roadie for Metallica for a while before he reformed Budgie................
 
I completely agree that Budgie (and Sabbath) were a big influence on metal, and bands that pioneered Prog Metal - but as pioneers of the genre per se, I don't think they were in the same ball park.
Originally posted by KrakAtack KrakAtack wrote:


Pink Fairies on Never Never Land and Kings of Oblivion were much more Prog than at any other time......and Hawkwind was also much more progressive once the speed metal king Lemmy left......although I still like Space Ritual and Hall Of The Mountain King........

http://krakatack.googlepages.com/hawkwind
http://krakatack.googlepages.com/mub3
http://krakatack.googlepages.com/moreunknownbands5
 
 
I don't disagree that those bands had proggy elements - the same could be said about many bands in the early 1970s, including Warhorse, Bakerloo, May Blitz - and all the other bands that don't get much coverage.
 
The Fairies and Hawkwind did elaborate jams. Hawkwind fit into the Progressive Rock canon like they do everywhere else in rock - they have a wide appeal, and the elaborate spacey textures and continual space/fiction themes put them into a strange category all of their own, but ultimately, neither were about technique or composition - as much as Wallis wanted the Fairies to be. Hawkwind may have been a jam band (essentially), but it's Dik Mik's clever soundscaping that really makes their music something special. Take it away, and you're left with little technique to shout about, and guitar noodling over a single 2 or 3 chord riff with no modulation.
 
Twink, of course came from Tomorrow via The Aquarian Age, Pretty Things (who recorded one of the earliest Rock Operas) - and, I think, the Deviants - or at least, some collaboration with Mick Farren, and his "Think Pink" album is a clear launchpad for Hawkwind, at least, Lemmy-era Hawkwind, which persued the Space Rock angle aggressively. Hawkwind almost went into decline until Tim Blake pitched up and they recorded "Levitation" - not sure what you mean about them being "much more progressive once the speed metal king Lemmy left"
 
The Fairies relied on jams (Do It, Uncle Harry's Last Freakout) and well-written, quirky hard rock songs (The Snake, Chambermaid, etc) - with more than a pinch of speed (City Kids - later covered by Motorhead, Raceway). Hence Sanderson and Wallis' moved on with Lemmy to form the earliest incarnation of Motorhead - which project was a complete and self-contained progression of metal all by itself. The 3rd studio album (without Wallis or Sanderson, but with Clarke and Taylor), "Overkill" (1978) contains a stunning variety of material (from "Metropolis" and "Capricorn" to the title track) that heavily influenced Metallica - who also recorded 4 or 5 Motorhead covers.
 
BUT
 
None of the latter is Prog Metal, or pioneering Prog Metal as I'm sure most fans of the genre would agree - it's the stuff that came before, just part of the range of influences.
 
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Points: 21598 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2008 at 09:40
^ wow, you're taking this quite seriously ... feel free to tag some of these albums at Ratingfreak.com, it would be interesting to see the progressiveness curves. For example for Judas Priest:

http://ratingfreak.com/Judas-Priest,_dbe,artists,_auto_9590360.xhtml

You can enter the data very efficiently on the tab "Edit Tags & Ratings" right on the artist page.
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Points: 6898 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2008 at 10:04
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

you're all drunk


I'm always drunk Clown !!!!
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Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

What other aspects of Prog Metal do you think we should be tracing back, apart from guitar techniques and formal complexity?


notably higher ambition, musical competency and musicological/historical understanding in rock and roll..  as I've said many times on this forum without too much shame, I believe Brian Wilson was the grandfather of progressive rock music, the first popular artist to truly take rock seriously, to record it with greater care and with an emphasis on modern technologies, infuse other musics with authenticity, not to mention a major move toward experimentalism and avant garde, i.e. Smiley Smile (1967)   ..other influences may point at the earlier heavy psych bands as well

 
Well... the "higher ambition" and "musical competency" seems to be mainly in the guitar techniques and formal approaches.
 
In this, we've covered precision and attention to detail in soloing technique:
 
Schenker and Roth seem to the the earliest pioneers, which puts the Scorpions and UFO at the base - but I would also consider Gary Moore among their number, hence my earlier mentioning of Thin Lizzy and Skid Row (the band Moore and Lynott were in before Lizzy, NOT the 1980s band!).
 
"musicological/historical understanding in rock and roll" is a tricky one - the Beatles were fully aware of their roots, started out as a Skiffle band (can't get much more traditional) and covered Chuck Berry alongside the other classics on their early albums.
 
It's not really specific enough - Elvis sang a lot of traditional gospel music, AC/DC's music is rooted in Chuck Berry and the blues... where do we draw lines, or at least, fuzzy edges?
 
As for Wilson, personally I'm of the opinion that Martin was a greater studio innovator, and the Beatles were more innovative with their sounds... but I think that's a different discussion Wink
 
 
Originally posted by BigHairyMonster BigHairyMonster wrote:

Well, if we must insist upon playing with boxes...

Why is it that we need an exact time, date, band an album to refer to as the beginning of prog metal.
 
Doesn't have to be exact, and is hardly going to be one person or band - just a set of pioneers. It's interesting, more than anything.
 
Everything else in your post is interesting - but I think that influences are very different to actual pioneers. The essential elements have been explored before in lengthy discussions on the timeline of heavy metal, and all those bands have been mentioned.
 
 
Originally posted by KrakAtack KrakAtack wrote:


Budgie- Never Turn Your Back On A Friend (check out those long form compositions like 'Breadfan' and 'Parents'; their albums are often somewhat inconsistent, however...as an aside, Metallica covered 'Breadfan')


Metallica also covered Crash Course in Brain Surgery and In For The Kill. Budgie definitely takes a lot of points as one of the pioneers. Of course there were many other groups who contributed bits and pieces to the prog heavy metal uprising.....Check out MC5 - High Time, Spontaneous Combustion, Armageddon, Eloy, Hawkwind, Golden Earring, Man, Uriah Heep, Pink Fairies, King Crimson, Mahogany Rush, Lucifer's Friend, Stray, Iron Butterfly, some early Scorpions with Uli John Roth and even some Taste songs.......and, of course, Blue Oyster Cult.........
 
 
Again, an interesting list - all those bands came up in the "History of Heavy Metal" thread - but influences, not pioneers.
 
Budgie are a quite interesting case (although if you look on their album sleeves, they stoically deny being progressive in any shape or form!), but their music centered on streams of bludgeoning riffs, with little or no intention of developing them or creating overly elaborate structures.
 
Pink Fairies (and the whole Ladbroke Grove scene) are of great interest to me - they and Hawkwind created and developed the sound behind Motorhead. But that bunch of sweeties were more dirty road punks than progressive rockers.
 
Of the old school, I'd say Mk II Deep Purple were closest, Sabbath and Zepplin close behind.
 
Obviously it's all rooted in the early "heavy" psych bands, but where the pioneers of the distinct genre are concerned, the music really started to emerge in the late 1970s, early 1980s, along with the "NWOBHM".
 
Heavy Metal underwent a change in the 1980s, from which it's sound and style has *fundamentally* hardly changed to this day. As part of that change, Progressive Metal "appeared" as a logical and natural continuation.
 
It's the pioneers of that change who are, I think, most interesting to this debate more than the earlier pioneers of metal or heavy music in general.
 
 
 
If anyone's kept up with that lot, here's a bonus Wink;
 
On the subject of technical guitarists, one guy that gets overlooked more often than not is Akira Takasaki of the Japanese band Loudness.
 
I think the reason he gets overlooked is that Loudness' songs are possibly not that amazing - I hear many of them as a pale imitation of the Scorpions (YMMV, of course). As a guitarist, Takasaki was famed for his tapping technique. Check him out - but skip to the solos. In case the first two songs put you off, the 3rd is MUCH better, IMHO, so skip to that Big%20smile
 
 
 
It`s interesting that you mention Budgie. I think that they got stuck with the progrock label as a result of the Roger Dean cover artwork. I love their stuff it`s kind of dfferent.
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Originally posted by KrakAtack KrakAtack wrote:

well, I`ve tried a few times to get these guys included in the archives but the powers that be said they weren`t proggy enough. Hey I`ll give it another try. What about that frank Franzetta artwork. Cool
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Originally posted by Vibrationbaby Vibrationbaby wrote:

  It`s interesting that you mention Budgie. I think that they got stuck with the progrock label as a result of the Roger Dean cover artwork. I love their stuff it`s kind of dfferent.
I agree, different from run-of-the-mill Heavy Rock that was around at the time but only prog by virtue of the (two?) Roger Dean album covers. The band always denied the Prog Rock label themselves, but in the 70s most Budgie fans also liked prog, so the association was through the fans, not the music. Still, influential on NWOBHM and Bay area thrash, so not without merit in this context Big%20smile
 
What?
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Yeah you have point there. I guess it was through the fans. But it did come about because of the Dean artwork. I think you were the guy who tried to make the SR-71 model based on the Roger Dean artwork. if my memory serves me correct. I tried it with a Starfighter model.
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Points: 865 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2008 at 14:13
I'm somewhat biased because of my undying love for them, but I do believe Metallica was the first group to make true progressive metal albums, and perhaps the first "true" metal band who had a truly progressive angle to the music they made. Eventhough their first two albums don't really count as progressive if compared to the progressive metal of later years, there is no doubt the band had a "progressive" and perhaps somewhat "artsy" mindset when making them, an urge to make something different and groundbreaking. I, personally, have zero objections to calling Master of Puppets and ...And Justice for All true progressive metal albums.
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Points: 438 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2008 at 17:57
Here are some prog metal pioneers in my opinion:

Rush
Uriah Heep
King Crimson
Frank Zappa
Iron Maiden
Judas Priest
Fates Warning
Queen
Queensrhyche
Kansas
ELP
Pink Floyd
Yes
Metallica
Megadeth

Although some bands up here aren't prog (Queen, Metallica, Megadeth, Judas Priest, Iron Maiden), many prog metal bands took some of their ideas and put it into their music. One example would be that many prog metal bands have a thrash metal sounding guitar that most likely came from Metallica and Megadeth.

Would you like some Bailey's?
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Points: 46838 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2008 at 18:10
Originally posted by StyLaZyn StyLaZyn wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by StyLaZyn StyLaZyn wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

^ how about  proto prog jazz as well LOL

Brubeck anyone?...  don't tell me he wouldn't fit here.  Name a prog fan that doesn't enjoy Time Out for example... on it's merits at least.. overexposure being another matter. Not to mention it's influence on popular music.. and prog.


I have never heard that tune. Actually the only Brubeck I know is Take 5.




Time out is the album the song Take Five is from....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Out_(album)

every prog fan... music fan ... should have that album. 




Off Topic.....
OK, I just picked up that Brubeck and listened to it today. Good stuff. And I am convinced that Blue Rondo a la Turk must be done in the Progressive Metal fashion. I searched YouTube and ELP did a version, but I would love to hear (don't shoot me) Dream Theater give it a go.



off topic is the best place to be...  how many more posts about Rush being prog metal pioneers do we need LOL

I'm glad you liked it... that album would be on the VERY short list of albums.. of any variety.. that I would stranded on the proverbial desert island (with a boombox with a lifetime supply of batteries of course)

DT covering Blue Rondo a la Turk??????... *spits up Diet Coke* 

I would PAY to hear that hahhahhaha


Edited by micky - April 11 2008 at 18:10
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