The Ranting Room

Blacksword wrote: James wrote: In Britain though, there tends be a strong support for each party.  Most Conservative voters will likely never vote for the opposition, however bad their own leadership is.  It is not good form.  You are a Tory for life.The same applies for Labour (or New Labour) voters, who remember the Conservative years and do not want to return back to those times.  The problem is though, Conservatives are thicker-skinned, whilst unfortunately, Labour supporters are not showing themselves to be.So I disagree with your comments mostly.  Some people do vote like you do but in the case of Labour, they'd rather abstain from voting, than vote for the Conservatives.  The Conservatives vote for their own party, however appalling it is.You have also missed my main point also.  Maybe I just did not word it correctly, oh well.  I am not repeating it. James, 'NuLab' gained a lot of votes from former Tory supporters in 1997. Thats how they achieved such a huge landslide in that election. Prior to that we even saw Tory MPs defecting to Labour, as was the case with Alan Howarth. How did Labour do this? By becoming a more electable Conseravtive party. The 'New Labour' Team, comprised of the likes of Peter Mandelson et al, were very shrewd. They had been watching the Tories every move since the mid 80's, and Thatcher being replaced by Major was a God send for them. With inflation running at 15%, the housing market in freefall, and an un-inspiring PM, the Tories were on the way out. Blair had wanted that job since the early 80's, and as MP for Beaconsfield had talked of the need for the Labour party to 'modernise' For New Labour, this meant abolishing 'Clause 4' of their constitution which committed the party to public ownership of utilities, railways etc. Of course the Tories had privatised everything, and the cost of re-nationalisation would have bankrupted the country. This is how the Tories left their legacy behind. They knew that any party that replaced them would have to continue governing the country with a Tory economic agenda. Very clever on their part! Anyway, it's gone full circle now. The charismatic leader that was Blair, has been replaced with Gordon Brown (the labour parties answer to John Major) and lo and behold their ratings are plummeting. It;s time to prepare for another round of Tory government, but this time, I would bet a lot of money on their being very little noticible difference from what went before. It's a shame about Gwyneth Dunwoody, but New Labour have run their course, and people invariably vote on national issues at all elections. It's perceived to be the best way to kick a party in the nuts when they have screwed up on something big. What constitutes a screw up, is of course subjective, but for many people, Iraq, ill managed immigration policy, lies, cash for honours, insane beaurocracy, failing on crime, robbing the poor to pay the rich etc doesn't go down very well. If anyone thinks the Tories will play the game any differently, however, they are dreaming, in my humble opinion.

Very well said, Andy.  I should have left-out New Labour from my comment though, because they have  more Conservative views than Labour of old.

I also agree that when (it's not a question of if, in my opinion) the Tories get back in, nothing much will change.  Who is to say all the problems that have occurred with New Labour, wouldn't have occurred under a Tory regime?  At the moment, there really isn't a party I want to vote for.

New Labour - too right-wing for me and the old left rebels stand no chance of overthrowing it - they should have voted in Michael Meecher
Conservative - too right-wing
Liberal Democrats - too in the middle... some M.P.'s are left and some are right - no policies really
Green Party - I find you get left- or right-wing candidates and they don't have any particular policies besides the environment issues.  Plus they stand no chance of getting in anyway

Why is there no SLP/SDLP now?  The Communist Part also died a death.

There's just nothing to choose from.  It's all just gloomy.

As much as Jeremy Bentham's Panopticon idea has been largely responsible for many Big Brother concepts, his ideas should really be used in prisons. more.  The fact that inmates can wander about and have luxuries that not even I have, just doesn't bode well.  They should be punished for their crimes.  In many ways, they would probably have a worse time in a psychiatric ward.


Edited by James - May 31 2008 at 09:18

Indeed.  The "left" side of politics has been hounded out, it seems.  Socialism and Communism have completely disappeared.  We should have a choice but we don't.  That's the problem.  The parties are all similar to each other, there's no real radicals.

I like Nick Clegg too but as you say, I'd never vote Liberal Democrat.  I also like Vince Cable.  I'm still deciding whether I like "the smarmster" David Miliband or not.  He looks a bit like a Tory but he doesn't speak like one.  His father was a Marxist though, so maybe he's a good choice for future Labour Leader.  Hmm.  As I said though, he has that Tory smarm to him, which worries me.  That's the same smarmy look Blair eventually developed.

^ the real issue of choice is the "first-past-the-post" system. Living in a staunch Tory or Labour area means that people (like myself) with opposing views have no voice and no practical chance of changing the system. Here, voting Labour is a wasted vote and even voting Lib Dem is unlikely to unseat the incumbent MP even though 55% of the population don't want him.

darqDean wrote: ^ the real issue of choice is the "first-past-the-post" system. Living in a staunch Tory or Labour area means that people (like myself) with opposing views have no voice and no practical chance of changing the system. Here, voting Labour is a wasted vote and even voting Lib Dem is unlikely to unseat the incumbent MP even though 55% of the population don't want him.

I know exactly what you mean.  This year for our Council Ward, there was only (New) Labour, Conservative and Liberal Democrat to choose from.  Previous years we've had Green and Independent candidates as well.

There's just no other options.  You either vote for the one you like the best, or you can do the apparently dishonourable thing and spoil your paper.  That's better than not voting at all.

You can also spoil your paper, Jim, if you feel that way inclined.  That's more honourable than not voting at all, in my opinion.

I've always felt that voting should be compulsory, but there should be a 'None of the above' option on the ballot form. This would allow the parties to guage the extent of discontent with all the parties on offer.

As Jim says, this does put you in a real quandry, because if there is literally nothing you want to vote for, then you are reduced to voting tactically. Your vote becomes meaningless at that point. In a first past the post system, in a country where apathy is rife you will never have, in power, a government, that the majority of the electorate wants anyway. If a party can gain power on just 40% of the vote, when voter turn out is less than 50% anyway, they have actually come to power AGAINST the wishes of the electorate.

You are faced with a choice; bloody the nose of the party in power by voting in the opposition, who's manifesto is unclear in many respects and identical to the governments in others, or stick with the devil you know. In the real world, some degree of voter apathy is what the government wants. They can target key areas of their electorate - just enough to get the majority they need to stay in power, and ignore other demographic groups who they think are a lost cause. In Britain the Labour party is no longer the party of the working class. In fact they have gone in completly the opposite direction, especially in recent years. The working class used to be politicised, but now apathy is so rife in this demographic group, that before long it will only be the middle class and richos who bother to vote. The 'common man' is no longer represented in politics. The government legislates against their lifestyle in any way they can, and taxes the arse of them, but never will it engage with them. It cant be bothered. There is no political milage in doing so.

Enter the BNP.

The governments failed immigration policy, and decades of ill managed experiments in multiculturalism, have led to an inevitiable scapegoating of the immigrant population. Large swathes of the indigenous population want someone to be angry at. The white working class become the fire, and the media throw on the petrol.

Anyway, I digress. Was it Ken Livingstone who said that if voting made any actual real difference to anything, they wouldn't let us do it...

Personal political rant:

What the hell would the point of an elected Lords be?

Well how do you think we feel with New Labour, then?   They pretend to be the old Labour, with a new name but they're basically only slightly more lefty Tories.

Pah! Friday the 13th is a bloody amateur compared to Monday the 16th.  Everyone tip-toes around handling everything with kid-gloves on Friday - trying not to provoke the Fates or disturb the Karmic forces - so that ladders remain un-walked under and cracks are duly not stepped upon, black cats are stroked and pampered, touchstones are touched and rubbed, mirrors are wrapped in bubble-wrap save they crack mysteriously under the extra weight of an overly heavy sunbeam that should cross its path... But come Monday, all bets are off - having survived Friday the Thirteenth (part 1) people become complacent and nonchalant with their lucky heather and lucky rabbit's foot, accidents happen aplenty. So far today I've had a dual NAS drive fry both hard-drives for no apparent reason, a brand new PC that won't load its Raid drivers, a PDA that won't re-charge its batteries, a laptop PC that won't send mail, a Server that's taken over 72 hours to back itself up when it normally takes 5 and I'M OUT OF CHOCOLATE CHIP COOKIES!!!!

Here's a rant I want to get off my chest...... Everyday this week in the UK news there has been articles gallore about "teenage mothers" and what "should" be done.