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Dean 
Special Collaborator 
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
 Posted: August 10 2016 at 03:29 |
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Edited by Dean - August 10 2016 at 03:30 |
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20616 |
Posted: August 10 2016 at 04:30 |
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So just to be clear, both parties are responsible for their silence on gerrymandering. That's what is such a turn off to me on American politics. In many respects, both parties commit the same sins, starting with Wall Street pandering and all the rest that their lobbyists can throw at them.
Edited by SteveG - August 10 2016 at 14:36 |
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LearsFool
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: November 09 2014 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 8642 |
Posted: August 10 2016 at 14:52 |
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With McMullin perhaps in a position to siphon further votes from Trump in Utah, Hillary makes her move.
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HackettFan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2012 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 7951 |
Posted: August 10 2016 at 14:55 |
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The relatively more liberal local governments has provided the opportunity for philosophical hypocrisy to rear its head. Conservative philosophy gives preference to the wisdom of local governments over less local government, because they are thought to be closer to the people. That's the philosophy the conservative state government of Texas (and Oklahoma similarly) is only too happy to part from when the local governments start doing liberal-minded things. |
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A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46838 |
Posted: August 10 2016 at 15:03 |
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^ yep.... she has an opening there. HIllary and the Dems are going for the jugular. Internals.. hell .. .extenals are telling her the traditional battleground states are falling deeper into the deep blue. I see she has tripled her lead in Wisconsin in a matter of weeks.. as she did in Virginia.. in Pennsylvania. She'll try to engage Utah voters.. the effort alone might get her an uptick.. when the is the last time a Democratic Presdiential candidate even bothered to engage Utah voters.
 I think that is the appetizer for sticking a daggar in the heart of the GOP.. I think she will soon a make a major effort to turn Texas. Expedite the turning of the state. Or lay the groundwork for 2020 when that effort now might really pay off ...anyhow...my favorite number of the day.. 41. The percentage of Trump voters who think Hillary actually is... the devil. Yes.. that guy.... awesome... Even as the majority of his own supporters don't trust him to have a finger anywhere near the nuclear button.So that is the state of partisan politics today... check in. .and leave your brain behind... |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46838 |
Posted: August 10 2016 at 15:14 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46838 |
Posted: August 10 2016 at 15:22 |
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Texas may be a bit early in this election... but perhaps not since Trump is having the double effect of driving moderates and independents to Hillary.. and actually driving moderate pragmatic Republicans to Hillary. And still driving those more given to dogma. whom voting for a Democrat, even when supremely more qualified and suited to the Presidency is akin to voting for Joe Stalin or Hitler, they are going 3rd party to avoid the 'stain' of voting for Trump. The end result... not only has he energized Democrats, pushed the 'center' away.. but is also driving alway his less belicoise and partisan supporters. Oh book it Brian.. Texas is very much in play and I fully expect Hillary to put max effort in that state in the last month or so once the core 4 she needs to get to 270 (colorado, Virginia, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania) are money. They all poll heavily for her now.. but it is too early to book them blue. Once they are... she goes for the throat.. Utah was the first baby step.. Texas is the goal. Not waiting a couple elections for natural demographic changes to turn it.. but to take it now from the hands of Trump. by that way... yeah I saw the latest polls from Missouri... dead heat. and that is a state that had trended from battleground to Red. Trouble everywhere Trump looks when he looks at the electoral map. Edited by micky - August 10 2016 at 15:23 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46838 |
Posted: August 10 2016 at 15:44 |
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that is a subject I'd like to explore deeper at some point. It is lost now in the smoke of the Republican Dumpster fire but Hillary apparently was, and I'll be honest I was myself, surprised at the lack of traction Hillary had among young voters. I tend to think it is more a problem that can be laid to the feet of HIllary herself, few young voters remember or saw the liberal crusader she was then and still is today (in the velvet glove of a centrist-moderate haha) , and see her as 'old' (perhaps.. but still HOTTER than hell  ) and part of the establishment they are rebelling against. More a reflection of Hillary than a looming future problem for the Democratic Party itself but I was wrong once, I might be again.  Edited by micky - August 10 2016 at 15:53 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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LearsFool
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 09 2014 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 8642 |
Posted: August 10 2016 at 16:36 |
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Here's what's been spent so far on campaign ads. Notice a little something about Trump's spending...
Also, for the past three hours I watched an apparent loony Trump fan scale 21 storeys of the outside of Trump Tower. He's just been pulled into the building by first responders.
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46838 |
Posted: August 10 2016 at 16:43 |
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3 hours?
don't tell me you were waiting/hoping for him to fall were you52 mill to 0.... nice... but he is doing it his way. He's a maverick! I think I read he said he is saving it all for post Labor Day when the electorate is actually paying attention. Ahhh... they are paying attention NOW thanks to your loose gums |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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LearsFool
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 09 2014 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 8642 |
Posted: August 10 2016 at 16:47 |
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No, didn't want to see that. My grandparents were the ones who were really into it, that's how I found out about it. And I'd say that at the rate Trump and Hillary are going, that 10 point lead is going to be entrenched come Labor Day... up until debate one and then the gulf grows.
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46838 |
Posted: August 10 2016 at 16:57 |
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unless this 2nd Amendment flap drives his support even lower... I really can't think there are THAT many undecided left at this point in the game. What more do they need to see to see he is not qualified to be elected.... as city dogcatcher..... perhaps they are waiting to see if Trump stoops to burning young nubile liberal women alive at his rallies hahah.
I do agree though.. while Trump's support may drop.. the gulf widens.. it is the narrative that is becoming entrenched. He is unqualified, lack basic world knowledge and most importantly is simply not tempermentally suiited to be President. He is toast come November...and likely in the biggest rout since '84 and by far the largest in the hyper-partisan era (culture war) we have evolved into when loyalty to Party ID and demonization of the opposition matters more than used the eye and brain test on candidates. |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46838 |
Posted: August 10 2016 at 17:20 |
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words... simply can not describe this...
read and judge for yourself... and you wonder why they are so f**king angry... I am and I didn't make it past the strip search... and some really thing illegal immigration is a problem... or ISIS... how about we look in the f**king mirror as to our REAL problem is... http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/10/us/baltimore-justice-department-report-examples/index.html |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005 Location: Lilliwaup, Wa. Status: Offline Points: 5319 |
Posted: August 10 2016 at 17:25 |
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^ this is not politics....its crime committed by police officers who get a free pass.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: August 10 2016 at 20:29 |
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On some previous page of this thread, I had posted an article written ostensibly by an older journalist bemoaning the lack of interest in Hillary among millennial women. I agree with Brian; us millennials tend to vote on issues. I mean, you can't say voting along race or identity lines is screwed and then say, "But women should vote for Hillary just because..." It doesn't work like that. May the best candidate win. If Hillary can't make a case for that against Trump, against who is she going to succeed in doing so. Surely can't get any easier than this.
Edited by rogerthat - August 10 2016 at 20:29 |
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: August 10 2016 at 23:39 |
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Yeah...people scoffed when I said youth were a bit mistreated during this campaign but sorry, if I was a female I'd be a tad unhappy to hear that 1: it's a betrayal to my gender to vote against Hillary and there's a special place in hell for me or 2: if I support Sanders it's just because "that's where the boys are"
Look, maybe I shouldn't talk on this topic but that quote from Gloria Steinem is pretty cruel. So basically females who don't back Hillary...don't have valid opinions? "Oh pfffft all the boys back Bernie so that's why young girls do it too" seems pretty darn insulting to me. And many young women were indeed insulted. So yeah we youngins can't remember the liberal, fightin Hillary older folk knew...but Roger is right she has done a dreadful job of showing that to us. Also we really do believe in equality, meritocracy, so this whole identity politics game does not fly very well... A fighter? In one of the debates she said she won't push for more healthcare reform..because it's too hard. Didn't use those words but that is what she said more or less. Not the type of thing that's gunna show us youngins how much of a people first fighter she is |
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: August 11 2016 at 00:02 |
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Anyway the reason I came here tonight was because of the latest Clinton Foundation issue (this will actually tie in superbly to Roger and my comments). Emails have revealed more links between donors and the state department.
There have been other unpleasant if not outright shady things with the Clinton Foundation. Stuff never discussed much in the media, but circulates fast around the internet. There is always a technical way out of it but it's getting a bit insulting to our intelligence. It's reasons like this she has such a trust/image issue with the younger generation. Where's there's smoke there's fire. There's a helluva lot of smoke accumulating now and ya know, these emails were hidden. It took a FoI case to reveal them. Why hide them if it's nothing to worry about? EDIT: OH! How she has no problem talking about the influence of the Koch Bros and why the GOP does the climate change denialism but then when we ask how we can thus trust she will "take on Wall St" when she has so much money from them, we're just told "oh trust me". Stuff like this is why we don't believe in the fightin for the people Hillary. I have no doubt she existed, but my fav quote yet again "They climbed the mountain of s**t to get to the rose on top, just to find they lost the ability to smell along the way" |
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65499 |
Posted: August 11 2016 at 00:34 |
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^ Nixon said "it's not the crime it's the coverup" that gets you.
But here's the thing: I would guess for many voters who either have learned about or remember Watergate, evasiveness over donations is nothing. Chicken feed. Chump change. Tricky Dick hired people to conduct covert terrorism against not just perceived enemies but anyone who got in the way. In the words of FBI Asc. Dir. Mark Felt (via Bob Woodward) "They bugged offices, they followed people, planted false press leaks, passed fake letters; they canceled Democratic campaign rallies, they investigated Democratic private lives, they planted spies, they stole documents..." There's a difference. Edited by Atavachron - August 11 2016 at 00:41 |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: August 11 2016 at 04:13 |
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It's: "Guilty until proven innocent" and it's a symptom. It treats a whole class of people as criminals for being most likely to be criminals and that is a vicious circle that has to be broken. During the 1980s in the UK "sus" laws (meaning Suspicious Persons and also known as Stop and Search laws) resulted in the infamous race-riots in many major British towns - so they changed the law - now there is talk of bring back similar Stop and Search laws, which will result in more ethnic and race unrest... vicious circles have to be broken. I was shopping in our local supermarket the other day when I noticed there were security tags on packs of raw meat, the same tags they use in the electrical aisle on 52" flat-screen TVs. Curiosity piqued I then checked all other food items and concluded that only meat and bottles of spirits (hard liquor as you say over the pond) were deemed worthy of such anti-theft protection regardless of the monetary value of each item (they tag £5 packs of ground/minced beef and £2 packs of sausages, which are hardly high-value luxury items). Aside from the absurd reasoning that a shoplifter could stash a 52" TV under their hooded sweatshirt and then hot-foot it out of the store unnoticed, the notion that supermarkets fear the theft of £5 packs of mince even in the English home-counties where poverty isn't exactly a major issue raises some serious questions. It's another assertion of "guilty until proven innocent" and shows a basic (and endemic) lack of trust of the poor and underprivileged by the rest of society (because we tolerate this kind of thing without protest). While most of the resident population ponder whether it is ethical to eat veal or foie gras, and fret about whether their coffee is fair-trade and their hummus is organic, there is a strata of society who are so desperate that they have to steal basic essentials like mince and sausages to feed their families. It stigmatises the poor for being poor who are already stigmatised by being poor in the first place and that's another vicious circle that needs to be broken. When I worked in retail as a teen in the 1970s, the store detectives were unobtrusive and unknown to the rest of the staff (and they only worked part-time so we never knew when one was on duty) - as employees we were told to be vigilant for shop-lifters and given instruction to report suspicious looking customers to our supervisors - (the only time I reported anyone for acting suspiciously it turned out to be a store detective) - the suspect would then be quietly apprehended and escorted away from the public to be searched. Now most stores have uniformed security guards posted at each exit and searches are conducted in full view of other shoppers. It's humiliating and degrading, it is not preventative and it doesn't solve the problems that cause people to steal food. Each of these stores have food-donation points (that get passed on to Food Banks for distribution to "means-tested" poor people - our seemingly affluent little market-town has at least two such food banks). These in-store collection points generally contain packs of breakfast cereal and other non-essential, non-perishable items - I've no idea who puts food in them since no one ever does their shopping and thinks to themselves, 'Oh, I'll buy this pack of cornflakes for the poor' and I freely admit that it isn't until much later when I've arrived home and look at the spare "Buy one get one free" item I didn't actually need (or want) that I'm putting in the cupboard do I realise I could have given that "free" one away. However, these charitable acts only attempt to alleviate a symptom of poverty, they do not fix the causes of poverty. And that brings me back to the "why do Southern states vote Republican?" question I persist in asking despite all the "how" answers you've given. In an unrelated Blog I posted yesterday, I stated: 'The "rise of the right" in Europe, the EU, Brexit & UKIP, Boris Trump and Bernie Corbyn are all symptoms of disaffection, disenfranchisement and disconnection in the voting public - and here I stress these are symptoms, they are not solutions' and that alludes to the "why?" explanation I am reaching for.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: August 11 2016 at 09:55 |
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^^^ Dean, I had made a reference to the circumstances that led to the rise of the cultural right wing in India earlier in the thread and I think there are answers there as to the rise of the far-right in Europe as well as the Trump phenomenon in USA. When life falls well short of basic aspirations for a large number of people and they have nothing to look forward to, they start attacking 'the other'. That is why I believe the liberal elite cannot be exempt from blame in creating this monster that we now have to contend with. They have been very slow and reluctant to concede the problems in the world order they have played a major part in creating and maintaining over the last several years. Inequality by itself may not always be a problem but poverty is. Of course, it is not remotely rational to blame the other and I am not equipped to answer why they do so but it does seem that that is what they do when they feel hard done. Supporters of the Democratic Party will doubtless argue that it was the GOP that filibustered welfare programs out of existence but there can be no defence for wanting to ratify the TPP as if other free trade pacts haven't created enough problems. If the corporations benefit from such pacts, then govts have to find a way to get a fair share of tax from them so that the same may be used to better fund public facilities. Politicians who avoid this discussion because a major chunk of their election funding comes from said corporations are very much a part of the problem irrespective of their stated political affiliation. In summary, I would argue that the rise of the far right grants an alibi to the center-left mainstream to duck blame for the problems in the economic arrangement of the day. Because it's not like the underlying problems will go away if somehow the far right and/or demagogues like Trump are defeated. There has to be a recognition that a new economic order must take the place of the extant one which has now failed to serve our needs. There briefly appeared to be such recognition post Brexit but it's elusive again in all the euphoria over USA's potential first female president and all that.
Edited by rogerthat - August 11 2016 at 10:01 |
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American Politics the 2016 edition
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HackettFan wrote:
) regardless of gender, ethnicity even belief...we seem to be more issue/reality focused. Graduating into the worst economy since the end of WWII, with astonishing debts, probably helps