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Joined: January 26 2008
Location: PA, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4335
Posted: December 05 2012 at 20:07
thellama73 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
JJLehto wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
JJLehto wrote:
Yes, but remember this is really the: Borderline Anarchist thread
A laughy face isn't an argument. Anything wrong with borderline anarchy?
Good thing I wasn't making an argument, just an observable fact (makes no sense but might as well keep my poor smiley use going!)
Can you tell me something that is an unobservable fact?
Ghosts.
Ghosts don't exist.
Anyone else notice that everytime the doctor posts he makes less and less sense? Is it really possible that he can't tell the difference between free will and force? I get that he doesn't understand that government force (via regulations and labor laws) pushes companies overseas but where's the recognition that human beings are still filling these jobs and would be much worse off if they weren't? People don't cease being people because they are on the other side of a border/ocean.
Edited by manofmystery - December 05 2012 at 20:08
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
Posted: December 05 2012 at 20:30
manofmystery wrote:
Ghosts don't exist.
Nonsense.
manofmystery wrote:
Anyone else notice that everytime the doctor posts he makes less and less sense? Is it really possible that he can't tell the difference between free will and force? I get that he doesn't understand that government force (via regulations and labor laws) pushes companies overseas but where's the recognition that human beings are still filling these jobs and would be much worse off if they weren't? People don't cease being people because they are on the other side of a border/ocean.
After many, many conversations with the good Doctor, I think the principal difference between our worldviews is that he doesn't distinguish between an unappealing or inconvenient choice and coercion.
Because most people find it convenient to work for an employer rather than for themselves, he thinks that we are slaves to corporations. I don't understand this position, but it seems to be the one area where we most frequently clash. I do admire him for having the tenacity to keep coming back and arguing with me, though.
Da fuk? Damn, you have been away! I voted for Gary Johnson in November.
I'm no where near these nutters, there's still lefty tendencies in me like a progressive tax, acceptance of somethings our libertarian friends could never accept and what not...but yeah. Looooong story short: I still feel the same way I always did, but realized government was not the way to achieve it. In fact usually accomplishes the opposite. And I accepted trying to accomplish true fairness, and doing what's best for the most instead of hating the wealthy and hoping in vain to tax the crap out of them.
Edit: Arguing is always fun llama, especially when against good foes. I kept it up for years! I miss the days when I got to take on 3-5 of you in pages and pages of epic chains and etc
Another good point MoM. I actually feel ashamed that I was all about the "we need jobs, f**k the numbers and whats "best for economy" we need jobs!" but then I wanted high taxes and over regulation on them. Then I disregarded the loss of jobs with "b*****d fat cats have to pay their fair share!" Is it really about jobs, or envy and anger? It's hard to admit you are envious and vengeful, but pretty enlightening when you do.
Joined: January 26 2008
Location: PA, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4335
Posted: December 05 2012 at 21:16
Also, the "b*****d fat cats" are the ones who most love regulation because of regulatory capture (think we've touched on this before).
And llama: there are no such thing as ghosts as there is no afterlife. If you wish to discuss the theory of time or parallel universes faintly overlapping to creating ghostlike visuals then maybe just maybe we can talk. Peoples minds playing tricks on them and hoaxing are still far more likely culprits for ghost sightings, though.
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
Posted: December 05 2012 at 21:19
JJLehto wrote:
Another good point MoM. I actually feel ashamed that I was all about the "we need jobs, f**k the numbers and whats "best for economy" we need jobs!" but then I wanted high taxes and over regulation on them. Then I disregarded the loss of jobs with "b*****d fat cats have to pay their fair share!" Is it really about jobs, or envy and anger? It's hard to admit you are envious and vengeful, but pretty enlightening when you do.
There are signs up all over where I live that say things like "Tax the Rich!" and "Put the middle class over the 1%!"
It's unclear to me how taxing the rich is helpful to the middle class, and I can't help believing that these kind of passionate calls are motivated more by animosity towards a class of people rather than a simple desire for increased tax revenues. Maybe that's unfair of me, but I have a hard time imagining people getting so worked up over tax revenue.
Joined: May 29 2006
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Points: 8368
Posted: December 05 2012 at 21:38
manofmystery wrote:
And llama: there are no such thing as ghosts as there is no afterlife. If you wish to discuss the theory of time or parallel universes faintly overlapping to creating ghostlike visuals then maybe just maybe we can talk. Peoples minds playing tricks on them and hoaxing are still far more likely culprits for ghost sightings, though.
Much like our friend Pat, I have no interest in convincing you how wrong you are. Anyway, I don't believe in nutrition, chiropractic or global warming, so I know how you feel.
Joined: August 11 2005
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Points: 15784
Posted: December 05 2012 at 21:50
The Doctor wrote:
@JJ. From a comment you made to me awhile back. Just now getting to it. I actually have no problem saying "redistribution of wealth" or believing in it. I am somewhat of a socialist. All economics involves redistributions of wealth. And to me, our whole economy seems to be based on a much more insidious form of redistribution of wealth. Every time a rich executive ships jobs overseas so that he can increase his own bonus, he is redistributing wealth from the workers to himself. Every time my landlords raise rent, there is a redistribution of wealth from the tenants to the landlords. But we call this a "free" market and applaud it when the redistribution is from the bottom to the top. But when it goes from top to bottom, somehow it becomes evil.
As for the anarchy discussion, I'm more of an anarchist than any of the libertarians on this board. Because libertarians still believe in privately based social hierarchies based on how much wealth one has managed to redistribute from the rest of society to himself. They believe your boss, your landlord, your bank, the credit reporting agencies, etc., etc., etc. deserve to have power over you. I do not believe those structures are either just or appropriate. Nor do they have a positive societal effect. I believe more than they do in no hierarchical system, with a government in the equation to protect the powerless from the powerful.
No hierarchical system... with a government. That makes sense.
More of an anarchist... than the guy who doesn't want a government. (You can take the title because I really don't care I just want to point this out)
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
Joined: January 26 2008
Location: PA, USA
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Points: 4335
Posted: December 05 2012 at 21:50
thellama73 wrote:
manofmystery wrote:
And llama: there are no such thing as ghosts as there is no afterlife. If you wish to discuss the theory of time or parallel universes faintly overlapping to creating ghostlike visuals then maybe just maybe we can talk. Peoples minds playing tricks on them and hoaxing are still far more likely culprits for ghost sightings, though.
Much like our friend Pat, I have no interest in convincing you how wrong you are. Anyway, I don't believe in nutrition, chiropractic or global warming, so I know how you feel.
Because you can't, because there's no real evidence to do so with. We can agree on chiropracting, global warming (assuming you mean that man's influence on the earth's ever changing climate is insignificant), and I'm not sure what you're speaking to when you say "nutrition" so maybe there.
Edited by manofmystery - December 05 2012 at 21:51
Joined: August 11 2005
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Posted: December 05 2012 at 21:51
thellama73 wrote:
manofmystery wrote:
And llama: there are no such thing as ghosts as there is no afterlife. If you wish to discuss the theory of time or parallel universes faintly overlapping to creating ghostlike visuals then maybe just maybe we can talk. Peoples minds playing tricks on them and hoaxing are still far more likely culprits for ghost sightings, though.
Much like our friend Pat, I have no interest in convincing you how wrong you are. Anyway, I don't believe in nutrition, chiropractic or global warming, so I know how you feel.
Don't take this the wrong way - but - You actually believe in ghosts?
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
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Points: 8368
Posted: December 05 2012 at 21:57
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Don't take this the wrong way - but - You actually believe in ghosts?
I'm not a fanatic or anything, but I think there's a good chance. I am not so willing to dismiss the first hand accounts of a staggering number of people across every culture from the beginning of recorded history as mere hallucinations or lies simply because we cannot reproduce it in a laboratory setting. We can't reliably reproduce love in a laboratory setting, but we believe in that. We can't reliably reproduce dreams in a laboratory setting, but we believe in them. Even people who have never experienced love and don't remember their dreams believe that other people have on the basis of anecdotes.
I'm not saying there's an afterlife or that people are really seeing dead people, but why is it so hard to believe that there's a phenomenon that we don't understand and can't measure yet?
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
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Points: 28057
Posted: December 05 2012 at 22:07
thellama73 wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
If this kind of thinking is prevalent among libertarians then it's no wonder people aren't joining the cause in droves.
If you can't explain it easily, maybe point me to someone who can. And I tried Von Mises, and it'd rather shoot myself. It's like reading Kant.
I can explain it easily if you tell me what you want explained.
I find it somewhat odd that you think that because something is different from the historical norm, it must be bad. The historical norm has been violence, oppression, tyranny, torture, genocide and slavery.
No no no. What I said, or at least mean to say, is that it definitely seems like the diehard libertarians in this thread act a lot of the time like it should be obvious why libertarian (even extremely extreme anarcho-libertarianism) ideas are good. I'm saying it is not obvious, and that being condescending (not accusing anybody here, but it does happen) gets you nowhere. I'm not saying what has happened historically is what should have happened or continue to happen. I am saying that given government "always has been" (more or less), one needs to make an extremely good case why it should not continue to be. Replace government for taxes, etc.
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
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Points: 8543
Posted: December 05 2012 at 22:10
So many comments, so little time.
@Pat...governments are a hierarchical system. But private systems also exist which create hierarchical systems. The idea is to absolutely minimize the effects of hierarchical systems on the individual. That can be best accomplished with a government which reduces private power over other individuals.
@JJ and Rob. You both are absolutely right that government can also be an evil, but unlike both of you I do not see it as the only evil or even, as things currently stand, as the primary evil. Rather I see private power, that those with said private power, exert over the powerless as the primary evil.
@Rob. You make the assumption that contracts are 100% voluntary on both sides. They are not. You need a job, or a source of income. Period. No discussion. You also need a place to live. That means you must give up your freedom to someone else. The contract is not 100% voluntary on your part. You have to have these things to survive. Maybe you've been lucky and you haven't had to give your freedom up to a d*ck. I hope that luck continues. Cause there's an awful lot of d*cks out there with private power. You say you can eliminate your boss' power over you at any time. So let me ask you this. How would you then support your family?
@Logan. It brightens my day to argue with you.
Edited by The Doctor - December 05 2012 at 22:12
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
Joined: August 11 2005
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Points: 15784
Posted: December 05 2012 at 22:11
thellama73 wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Don't take this the wrong way - but - You actually believe in ghosts?
I'm not a fanatic or anything, but I think there's a good chance. I am not so willing to dismiss the first hand accounts of a staggering number of people across every culture from the beginning of recorded history as mere hallucinations or lies simply because we cannot reproduce it in a laboratory setting. We can't reliably reproduce love in a laboratory setting, but we believe in that. We can't reliably reproduce dreams in a laboratory setting, but we believe in them. Even people who have never experienced love and don't remember their dreams believe that other people have on the basis of anecdotes.
I'm not saying there's an afterlife or that people are really seeing dead people, but why is it so hard to believe that there's a phenomenon that we don't understand and can't measure yet?
It's not that I find it hard to believe. It's that I find it unnecessary to believe.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
Posted: December 05 2012 at 22:16
stonebeard wrote:
No no no. What I said, or at least mean to say, is that it definitely seems like the diehard libertarians in this thread act a lot of the time like it should be obvious why libertarian (even extremely extreme anarcho-libertarianism) ideas are good. I'm saying it is not obvious, and that being condescending (not accusing anybody here, but it does happen) gets you nowhere. I'm not saying what has happened historically is what should have happened or continue to happen. I am saying that given government "always has been" (more or less), one needs to make an extremely good case why it should not continue to be. Replace government for taxes, etc.
I wouldn't really argue that government has always been. You can argue that but in doing so you're lumping a lot of really different things into the word. Are an anarchist system and a 1780 style US government more different from each other than Hitler style Fascism and Norwegian style socialism are?
You're essentially making an argument from tradition with the way you're placing the burden of proof upon us as well.
Edited by Equality 7-2521 - December 05 2012 at 22:16
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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thellama73 wrote:
(makes no sense but might as well keep my poor smiley use going!)
Then I disregarded the loss of jobs with "b*****d fat cats have to pay their fair share!" Is it really about jobs, or envy and anger? It's hard to admit you are envious and vengeful, but pretty enlightening when you do. 
