"Freedom" thread or something |
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: March 12 2012 at 09:48 | ||
"war is a bitch" doesn't quite sum it up though. That implies "yeah well this sucks" not this kind of abuse:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/11/world/asia/afghanistan-us-service-member/index.html Because a solider leaving base to just go out and kill 16 random civilians (and injuring 5 more) is a real "bitch" isn't it? |
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jammun
Prog Reviewer Joined: July 14 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3449 |
Posted: March 12 2012 at 14:46 | ||
I'm sorry if "war is a bitch" sounded flippant or trivial. I did not mean it that way. Actually your link is my point. War literally makes people crazy, to the point that yes they will randomly kill women and children just for the hell of it (remember My Lai?). In fact we humans will attempt to wipe out entire ethnic groups, as we have seen time and time again, given half a chance. HIstory shows that none of us are immune. Ironically, my father owed his life to a handful of Navajos. Imagine that. My ancestors came to America, engaged in genocide, and sent those we did not kill to live on reservations, having taken away their land and their way of life. And then in time of war, we drafted them! And then, almost irrationally one would think, they had the innate goodness to save a 'white man' from certain death. He never forgot them, and in fact there were several at his funeral some 50 years later. |
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Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
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jammun
Prog Reviewer Joined: July 14 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3449 |
Posted: March 12 2012 at 17:16 | ||
My dad was as innocent as they come, a simple school teacher who was drafted into the army. You might call him a civilian. I'm not indifferent, but the last time I checked we did not attack Japan in the first place. That we chose to end that conflict in the way we did can and will be debated forever. You know, and please do not take this as me being some high-minded person, I recently decided, after all these years, to read Tolstoy's War and Peace. He speaks of various villages that just happened to physically be in the way of competing armies. Innocent people's lives destroyed just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. This is the way of war. And yes, eventually there's gonna be someone go batsh*t crazy and start slaughtering everyone in site. There's an excellent book. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bridge_on_the_Drina, that speaks far more eloquently on these subjects than I'll ever be capable of doing. I highly recommend it.
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Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
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jammun
Prog Reviewer Joined: July 14 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3449 |
Posted: March 12 2012 at 17:44 | ||
But back to what I was thinking. If the Iraqis (Sunnis vs. Shiites) kill each other, it's business as usual. If the Iraqis and the Iranians kills each other, it's business as usual. If the Hutus and the Tutsis engage in genocide, it's business as usual. To use a Pentagon phrase, do you think there is no "collateral damage" in these things? If the U.S. gets involved, well that's another story. Any collateral damage is "our" fault.
I live in Washington (the state). A guy such as myself can take a day or two trip, visit the forts, some which have now-neutered WWII era guns still in place. There was a concern that Japan would, as they say, take it to the mainland. It's a fascinating drive through history to see those emplacements and imagine the poor unfortunates who manned those installations. I do not know if the concentration camps we sent our Asian citizens to during that time are still in place. I need to check that out. They too were civilian casualties.
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Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
Posted: March 12 2012 at 18:47 | ||
You're making no sense. Were the people who tortured your father and dropped bombs on Pearl Harbor the same people wiped out by the bomb? You're making a serious fallacy error and associating every Japanese individual with the actions of Japan's government. You can call your father a civilian, but he was a member of the armed forces. That doesn't make his torture right, but his being tortured does not justify reducing cities of the innocent to ash. It's the way of war? That's the basis of your morality? All actions in war receive carte blanche? Maybe things happen like this because people lack the sight to imagine actually changing anything. |
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
Posted: March 12 2012 at 18:49 | ||
Ummm yeah. Because we're not culpable for the actions of others, but we are held morally responsible for the military which kills in our name. The consequences of that murder comes back to us. Our complacency condones these actions. What kind of an argument are you trying to make here? |
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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jammun
Prog Reviewer Joined: July 14 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3449 |
Posted: March 12 2012 at 19:16 | ||
Yep, hate to tell you, but it's the way of war and of governments. I do not condone it. Just reporting the facts, man. My morality sez do not get involved in the first place, but that would require sane governments, of which there are apparently none on this planet.
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Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
Posted: March 12 2012 at 19:20 | ||
You did condone it a few posts back though.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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jammun
Prog Reviewer Joined: July 14 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3449 |
Posted: March 12 2012 at 19:28 | ||
I'm saying when we (U.S.) do not get involved, were accused of complacency, i.e., "how can you let this happen?" When we do get involved then everything that happens after that is all our fault. Really, we just need to let the rest of the world carry on and take care of things here.
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Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
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jammun
Prog Reviewer Joined: July 14 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3449 |
Posted: March 12 2012 at 19:58 | ||
Or, courtesy of Bobby D., let's put it this way:
Well Abe says, “Where do you want this killin’ done?” God says, “Out on Highway 61” |
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Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: March 12 2012 at 23:15 | ||
Eh nothing personal really jammun, just wanted to post about that atrocity and you made a convenient tie in.
I used you for my political gain. |
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The T
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: March 13 2012 at 07:56 | ||
^You weren't going to find much problem advancing anti-war positions here Brian ..
now if you go to a GOP forum... |
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
Posted: March 13 2012 at 08:46 | ||
Yeah because the rest of the world does not constitute one homogeneous group that we can simply call the rest of the world. They have different opinions. Some people want us to intervene, some people do not. That's why we have foreign policy debates. I agree with your last sentence, but complete indifference to the nuking of Japan does not really back up the advice you give. |
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 03 2007 Location: The Heartland Status: Offline Points: 16913 |
Posted: March 13 2012 at 11:54 | ||
Cheesesteak commentary for the unofficial cheesesteak thread.
Written by a Philly native tired of cheesesteak misinformation.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
Posted: March 13 2012 at 12:54 | ||
Good article, but the guy's wrong. There's better bakeries than Amoroso in Philly. The best steak places don't use their rolls.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 03 2007 Location: The Heartland Status: Offline Points: 16913 |
Posted: March 13 2012 at 14:38 | ||
Pat, there's no doubt, if I ever make it to Philly, I will be running my sandwich tour itinerary by you. My gut feeling is that you know the soul of cheesesteak like no one else. |
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
Posted: March 13 2012 at 15:53 | ||
I see the cheesesteak as more of a religion than a sandwich.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: March 13 2012 at 16:16 | ||
"Leave the young people alone and they'll find out they prefer lovemaking to warmongering" sage words from the old gynecologist.
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jammun
Prog Reviewer Joined: July 14 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3449 |
Posted: March 13 2012 at 17:40 | ||
Well I'm finished tying myself into admittedly illogical knots. I am not indifferent, but the last time I looked civilian deaths vs. military combatant deaths were perhaps as high as 2:1. So apparently that was standard operating procedure back then. As I said, let's all just go home and spend maybe a little more time on our own problems. |
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Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
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The T
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: March 13 2012 at 21:14 | ||
While I was driving today I saw the first cheesesteak place I've ever seen in FL. Alas, it was in a rather bad area, so my chances of eating that apparently libertarian-oriented but definitely artery-clogging delicacy still seem to be low...
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