On the burning of books ...

Fear is not a good reason for doing or not doing anything. You shouldn't burn Korans because it's stupid and accomplishes nothing, not out of fear of violent reprisal.

^ There's that "shouldn't" word again, Llama -- ideas are more important than reality, and others lives, are they?

Edited by Peter - September 13 2010 at 00:27

stonebeard wrote: CCVP wrote: stonebeard wrote: CCVP wrote: Racism is not something restricted to the artificial concept of "race", you know? No I actually don't know. If I burn a Koran that doesn't make me racist (or to be inclusive, anti-Muslim culture...whatever) unless I'm doing because I'm xenophobic or something like that. Then it could apply. A lot of the atheists who do it are thoughtful people who are liberal as all hell, but burn it because it is precisely the sort of thing people should get over. It's not hurting anyone, DEAL WITH IT, to all the horrendously offended Muslims protesting out there. Did they hurt your wittle feelings? Boo hoo. Sadface. :( CCVP wrote:  If this happened here all people involved would have been arrested from 2 to 5 years, without any chance of leaving sooner. THis is one of the reasons why race violence is so apparent in the USA. So in Brasil, if you burn a book it's 2-5 years in prison? Christ Almighty... It is not burning JUST a book. You know pretty damn well that this is not just burning a book. The whole media revolved around this and it became quite clear that it was more than a demonstration of philosophical disagreement. It is an active gesture in order to hurt people that are members of that religion. And North-Americans still wonder why people from the Middle-East hate them. You claim to be free, yet the own population do not allow other people to be free, think freely and to have a religion, free from social judgement. maybe it is an active gesture to hurt the FEELINGS of Muslims. That's all a book burning might do. Hurt their feelings. Boo-f**king-hoo. I wonder if it's in their Constitution that their cultural feelings aren't allowed to be hurt. Because we're sure as hell allowed to do things that hurt others' feelings in our country. What kind of country has laws specifically in place that makes it a crime to hurt someone's feelings? Is that not crazy? And as far as your second paragraph let's be clear here; the day America bents over backwards not to hurt the feelings of people that demand we all treat their religion with respect is the day the simpering pansies win. I'm not a racist, and I am not anti-Muslim. I am against curving freedom of expression and speech just because some overly sensitive people who are not afraid to blow themselves up enough times to get certain unnamed governments to make insulting their beliefs illegal. There's a word for that: cowardice. Maybe I'm insensitive, but it's better than letting fear run amok. About your edits: "Arrested for racism." I genuinely laughed. You can't be arrested for a belief here, only an act. Also, burning a cross in the front yard of a black person is illegal (I'm supposing it is) because it's an act of intimidation. Also, it's not on the person's land. If the person wants to burn a cross on their own property and dress as a KKK member, I'm quite certain they're allowed to, barring any home owner's accommodation agreements or city ordinances.

Edited by Rabid - September 13 2010 at 01:03

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: The T wrote: I may not agree with the reasons behind burning books... but even less do I agree with restricting the right to do so...    Then I ask: If the USA Congress decides that evolution is dangerous, can they burn all Darwin books? If the Supreme Court decides that the books about another political system different to democracy is wrong (And believe me I'm anti-Communist), would you deffend their right to burn all Marx books? If they decide that no other language than English should be spoke in USA, can they burn all books in Spanish? Please Theo, burning books is the end of the rights you claim to deffend. Only totalitarian systems allow to burn books.   Iván   EDIT: You only need one book to give the first step for this:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghANkWNG-r4&feature=related   From Farenheit 451 based on a novel by Ray Bradbury

Iván, would you please get your head out of your ass? Thanks.

CCVP wrote: edit: I bet that if he was trying to burn Talmuds he would be arrested for racism and judged as if he was a neo-nazi and you know that damn well. Some people can't be MORE equal that others.

What an idiotic statement. Nothing would have happened, no matter what book he wanted to burn. Please stop misrepresenting the principles of freedom of speech.

CCVP wrote: edit 2: So, if those are acts of freedom of expression, why can't people still dress in white and burn crosses around? Same damn thing, with the exception that black people actually had numbers to fight back in the USA and to make that stop. Once again, that shows that this kind of "democracy" is nothing more that the dictatorship of the majority.

The KKK can do that all day long - nobody would stop them from doing so, as long as they're not harming anyone.


Edited by Mr ProgFreak - September 13 2010 at 01:44

Peter wrote: You know, that's how terrorism (supposedly) works -- it's all about what happens later as a result of your act, the ripple effect, the dominoes that fall. Blow up market (or buildings, or children, or cherished symbols, whatever) > cause fear & distrust > cause a limitation of rights of movement and assembly > cause anger > cause further repression "for the greater good" or "security" > cause schism along ethnic, political  or religious lines > cause revolution >>>>   Burn a pile of Korans.....   Don't forget, fundamentalists want Armageddon to happen. Whether it's "Biblical" with angels and dragons or mundane and worldly with atom bombs and genocide is academic -- you'll be just as dead.

I think the solution is to work towards a society in which those chains can't work.

Rabid wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: Rabid wrote: I've never seen a Muslim burning a copy of the Christian bible. That's because they have a general respect for it.    Does that mean that Christians don't have a general respect for the Qu'uran?

It seems like people are trying to rationalize away principles that are fundamental to a free society for the purpose of some degree of safety. The attempt is to punish someone for harm others might do. It's to criminalize an action because of how other people may act.

Mr ProgFreak wrote: Iván, would you please get your head out of your ass? Thanks.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 13 2010 at 10:42

^^ I think you're wrong. And freedom of speech is exactly about that - being able to say that you think that someone else is wrong. I appreciate that you return the insult - I was curious to see how you would react.

Now, as far as your argument about book burning is concerned: It's two different things entirely:

A) A person purchases a book and then burns it in public
B) A person robs a book from another person and then burns it, or even burns all copies of a certain book and then prevents people from aquiring it

If you can't see the difference, then I can't help you. And if you think that A can lead to B then - as I said in the beginning, you're wrong. I guess that there are certain people who would like to do B and who would do A instead of B just because a liberal society permits A but not B. But that doesn't mean that A leads to B.


Edited by Mr ProgFreak - September 13 2010 at 10:23