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Certif1ed 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559
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 Posted: October 13 2007 at 07:56 |
Hopefully it'll settle down over time - those rankings are ridiculous and make a mockery of the site.
4 stars = "Excellent addition to any prog music collection".
Come on.
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20239
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Posted: October 13 2007 at 08:06 |
 micky wrote:
I really can't believe you all.... albums don't 'deserve' any particular rating. IF so ..what is the point of reviewing... just award the damn album 5 stars.. because it is inluential or popular.
sorry to see my example has been ignored. You can review a non prog album accurately and fairly based on it's prog quotient. That is fair to all... unless the only thing that matters.. is what the damn ranking is...
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Exactly my point.
If I did pull out those rankings, it is to see that on the average these albums on top are the better ones from a given group.
But as I said in the other thread (rating changes) I couldn't care less of those rankings as seen from a general spectrum. Those TOP 100 list are not that trustworthy (they might give an idea, but theway some focus on it, I suspect major skewing) and less on this site than at Progressive Ears or at Gnosis2000.
So in its finality, I don't care for intergroup comparisons, because PA is not trustworthy
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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andu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 27 2006
Location: Romania
Status: Offline
Points: 3089
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Posted: October 13 2007 at 08:23 |
Atavachron wrote:
that's a great Zep 4 write-up, micky |
Great one, indeed  Except for the fact that Battle of Evermore is the only Zepp songs where Jones doesn't do the mandolin, but Page... and Jones did the guitar, and the backing vocals when Sandy wasn't around  And a great Tales review too, btw 
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fuxi
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2459
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Posted: October 13 2007 at 08:55 |
I'm sure you can rationalise BS's inclusion as much as you like. I just find it thoroughly depressing. 
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10617
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Posted: October 13 2007 at 09:05 |
Hercules wrote:
Much though I like Sabbath, their connection with prog is too tenuous to include them and nothing in Sean's biopic convinces me otherwise.Add to that Iron Maiden, The Beatles, Radiohead, Messhugah, Led Zeppelin and The Who and this site is stretching the boundaries of what is prog, or even prog related much too far.Yet some bands with really progressive tendencies (Toto is an obvious candidate) are not here.
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Sorry Toto, but we're not in Kansas anymore.
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: October 13 2007 at 09:06 |
fuxi wrote:
I'm sure you can rationalise BS's inclusion as much as you like. I just find it thoroughly depressing. |
I can understand your point of view... However, I don-t understand why you and all the other people who find PR additions depressing don-t address the issue directly with the owners. If they think they are important to draw more people in, perhaps they should realise that instead they are having the opposite effect, especially on longtime members. Personally, though I am in favour of PR and none of the additions has ever bothered me in the least, I think it-s not a good thing if they are forced down people-s throats.
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10617
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Posted: October 13 2007 at 09:20 |
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I know I'm not reviewing any more albums till the BS reviews die down. My Eno review was on the front page for a second and then it was trampled by a horde of metal thunder, and poor Eno is so delicate. Ouch!!!
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: October 13 2007 at 09:28 |
I just found out Rick Wakeman played with the band. Weird. I did not know that. Hope someone posts something from that to the streaming. I guess I'll have to check out the samples at my favorite internet CD shop. Just checked out the site and he's not in the credit but the review mentions synthesizers and none of the other band members are credited with synthesizer.
Edited by Slartibartfast - October 13 2007 at 09:32
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Abstrakt
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 18 2005
Location: Soundgarden
Status: Offline
Points: 18292
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Posted: October 13 2007 at 09:49 |
Rick Wakeman plays on some songs of the "Sabbath Bloody Sabbath" album.
Most notable on "Who are You?", which is a pretty dull song  |
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10617
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Posted: October 13 2007 at 10:01 |
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Rick Wakeman played on a lot of people's music. For instance Cat Steven's "Morning has Broken" and many others. The caped one was not known for turning down a decent paying gig.
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fuxi
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2459
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Posted: October 13 2007 at 10:09 |
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Peter
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
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Posted: October 13 2007 at 10:27 |
micky wrote:
You can review a non prog album accurately and fairly based on it's prog quotient. That is fair to all... unless the only thing that matters.. is what the damn ranking is...
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Ah, but "prog" is just not a clearly identifiable quantity, now is it?
It's hardly a scientific, or precise, clear term, and you must have noticed that opinions on its meaning and scope vary widely. (It's not even a genre. It is a largely subjective value judgement, IMO.)
Your sweeping statement would seem to give me carte blanche to savage all prog metal albums as being "not prog enough," and give them consistently failing ratings, because to me, the metal part of the equation always dominates, and I simply don't like modern metal. Others can also fairly rate all of our listed classic and hard rock albums quite low (whether or not they like them as MUSIC being beside the point, apparently), if they find that the "prog quotient" is less than dominant.
Do you see the difficulty in trying to make one prog-centric rating system fit all of the listed music? If we are to review non prog albums, we should be able to review them as such -- as MUSIC.
I'm not just being difficult or cantankerous. I can "measure my pleasure" (never mind that image!  ) from a piece of music, but I honestly don't know how to measure "prog quotient." in any sort of objective, universally agreed-upon fashion. Do you have some sort of special tool for the purpose? 
(Not that Tool is considered prog in my house....)
Your position is rather tenuous, even "dangerous," if you think it through. I firmly believe the primary consideration for any reviewer, of any album, must be "How much do I enjoy this MUSIC," not "How prog is this?"
"Prog" is not synonymous with "good," is it? 
Edited by Peter - October 13 2007 at 10:51
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: October 13 2007 at 10:41 |
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: October 13 2007 at 10:45 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10617
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Posted: October 13 2007 at 12:10 |
Peter wrote:
micky wrote:
You can review a non prog album accurately and fairly based on it's prog quotient. That is fair to all... unless the only thing that matters.. is what the damn ranking is... |
Ah, but "prog" is just not a clearly identifiable quantity, now is it?
It's hardly a scientific, or precise, clear term, and you must have noticed that opinions on its meaning and scope vary widely. (It's not even a genre. It is a largely subjective value judgement, IMO.)
Your sweeping statement would seem to give me carte blanche to savage all prog metal albums as being "not prog enough," and give them consistently failing ratings, because to me, the metal part of the equation always dominates, and I simply don't like modern metal. Others can also fairly rate all of our listed classic and hard rock albums quite low (whether or not they like them as MUSIC being beside the point, apparently), if they find that the "prog quotient" is less than dominant.
Do you see the difficulty in trying to make one prog-centric rating system fit all of the listed music? If we are to review non prog albums, we should be able to review them as such -- as MUSIC.
I'm not just being difficult or cantankerous. I can "measure my pleasure" (never mind that image! ) from a piece of music, but I honestly don't know how to measure "prog quotient." in any sort of objective, universally agreed-upon fashion. Do you have some sort of special tool for the purpose?
(Not that Tool is considered prog in my house....)
Your position is rather tenuous, even "dangerous," if you think it through. I firmly believe the primary consideration for any reviewer, of any album, must be "How much do I enjoy this MUSIC," not "How prog is this?"
"Prog" is not synonymous with "good," is it? |
Well put.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: October 13 2007 at 13:46 |
The T wrote:
I guess my words weren't the right ones...I apologize... What I wanted my word to mean is, and please I hope I'm understood now: if there are people that, just because of BS inclusion in PA, think they have to leave PA, OK! We win. I never intended, NEVER EVER, to say "those who opposed BS inclusion are elitists and must leave". NO! I intended to say that people that can't take the addition of a polemical band and leave because of that are certainly not the kind of music fans I belive are better for PA. Please understand me. If you Ivan (and Atkingani, please) tought I meant anything against you or any other detractor of Sabbath, I APOLOGIZE, with all my respect. But I won't take back my statement that those who leave PA just because ONE band is added, well, they're better off GONE. It's like if I have left when Coheed and Cambria were added. Would I have been the right kind of person to help PA? Would I have even been considered for collaborator? No.
That's what I meant and please, TRIPLE apologies if you misunderstood me.  |
I understood what you meant, but I disagree, a lot of collaborators have left for silliest reasons and came back again and again, nobody told them: Hey you left and we were better without you......Prog Archives received them back because we need capable people.
Most of the people who disagree with Black Sabbath are older members who join this site because of Prog, not because of barely related Metal bands, and if they leave...WE LOOSE.
Some of us has learned to accept this flaws in the system, but it's enough to have Black Sabbath and many other bands here to also receive mockery and people rubbing in your face that they won.
To win, you need class, and some posts giving cheers and mockery lack of class.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 13 2007 at 17:13
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20239
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Posted: October 13 2007 at 17:24 |
IUn the meantime, while everybodywas focusing on insignificant Black Sabbath, none noticed the inclusion of one of the last great omission of this site, the prog folk Chilean group Congreso!!!
Thanks toç Clem, Micky and Cuncuna 
Now, THERE IS PROG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
|
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: October 13 2007 at 17:26 |
Sean Trane wrote:
IUn the meantime, while everybodywas focusing on
insignificant Black Sabbath, none noticed the inclusion of one of the
last great omission of this site, the prog folk Chilean group Congreso!!!
Thanks toç Clem, Micky and Cuncuna
Now, THERE IS PROG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
that was a great addtion Hugues.... good job ..everyone..
Prog does live on hahahh That is why we stay here, in spite of these addtions. It is a prog site
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: October 13 2007 at 17:28 |
Sean Trane wrote:
the inclusion of one of the
last great omission of this site
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ahhh.. not so fast... that will be coming in the near future 
when the time is right
Edited by micky - October 13 2007 at 17:28
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Cheesecakemouse
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 1751
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Posted: October 13 2007 at 17:28 |
Abstrakt wrote:
Rick Wakeman plays on some songs of the "Sabbath Bloody Sabbath" album.
Most notable on "Who are You?", which is a pretty dull song |
No he actually only plays on one song on the album - Sabbra Cadabbra, the CD I've got has the musicians contribution on each song, Wakeman only appears on one.
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Black Sabbath inclusion
