Roger Waters

About the recent discussion;

The original quote that caused this says "not". So, a perception/perspective exists but truth does not without the other. Or opinions exist but facts do not without the other.. Or else, nothing can exist without perception/perspective. Or no truth can exist without opinion. Quintessentially, it says that nothing is the truth and nothing is a fact. I think this is utterly laughable. I'm a solid materialist. Even if we, the living beings, perceive everything (every material thing) differently, they still exist materially. We, the animals, touch a stone. Right? It doesn't matter how we see it, in essence. Some get burned if the stone is hot, some are not affected at all. But the temperature of a stone can change from hot to cold. Is this solely a perspective? I think not.

Anyway. Here's a poem about "truth" that I like very much:






Edited by Archisorcerus - March 16 2023 at 18:13

Lewian wrote: Easy Money wrote: If someone sees a tree and he says, look its a tree, then he is using perception, but if he does not even see the tree or calls it a cow, its still a tree. The fact that it is a tree does not require perception, perception is only necessary for someone to realize its a tree. "Tree" is a word. It requires somebody to say it, and somebody to see the tree, who necessarily has a perspective. For me there is no contradiction between perspective and fact. All facts we are aware of are declared to be facts by somebody, from some perspective. Everything we know about trees comes from perception. You can say the tree is there without perception, but it isn't there as a tree, as tree is a word and connected to people who perceive the tree.

Yes at some point someone had to use perception to define what a tree is and label it as a 'tree', but that said object does not need that definition to exist. Call it whatever you want to and it is still the same object that is "something that exists", which is the definition of the word fact. This thing that we call a 'tree' is something that exists no matter what we call it.


Edited by Easy Money - March 16 2023 at 18:18

Lewian wrote: The thing that is apparently hard to get about what I'm saying is that by stating the importance of perception and perspective I'm not saying there are no facts. I'm not saying "it's solely perception and therefore it's not a fact". All I'm saying is all we know about facts comes from perception and perspective. Even if we say "XXX exists independently of our perception", there is no way for us to know this independently of our perception.

Facts still would exist even if there no living beings that have a perception existed in the universe. Our knowing or not knowing the facts does not change reality/realities.

All things are quantum fluctuations. We (people) give those quantum fluctuations a sort of "identity" by naming them. However, depending on all sorts of things like the perception of wave length, density, mass etc, different creatures (and indeed people) will interpret these quantum fluctuations differently.

Edited by Hugh Manatee - March 16 2023 at 19:12

There must be some really good weed going round.

Hugh Manatee wrote: The map however is not territory.

suitkees wrote: And a bit more about Roger Waters, this time with the Germans...

I like eating paper sometimes....

Archisorcerus wrote: suitkees wrote: In everyday language - as is apparent in some comments here - there is often a confusion between "reality" and "fact". To add to the confusion, but also maybe for a better understanding of of the notion, some more recommended reading... The definition of reality according to the Cambridge Dictionary (online): the state of things as they are, rather than as they are imagined to be or a fact ( its 2nd meaning) Thus, reality can mean a fact. The definition of fact according to the same dictionary: something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information Imagine that you see an ice cube. It is heated, it melted and became fluid. You perceived that happening. Yet, it is also real and a fact, regardless. You see a natural event (or some other phenomena) from your perspective, but it would still happen even if there were no living beings with perception in the universe. That particular case is not the point here. If you are not delusional, such things that you perceive happen in reality and are factual things. I don't have the time to read that long writing now, yet I don't have any sorts of confusion on this matter.  Edit: Sorry for all those "fonts". Before I posted, they were not so, haha.

My head hurts from eye strain trying to read this!