Only White Light / White Heat gets Proto-Punk as one of its main genres. With rateyourmusic it makes more sense to look at the specific albums and to use the specific term they use and look at the definitions which are linked.

Primary: Experimental Rock, Noise Rock, Proto-Punk
Secondary: Garage Rock, Psychedelic Rock, Spoken Word

And The Velvet Underground & Nico has it as a secondary genre:
Primary: Art Rock, Experimental Rock
Secondary: Proto-Punk, Noise Rock, Garage Rock, Psychedelic Rock, Art Pop

No where does it just say punk there for that. People at PA would often say that Proto-Prog is not the same as Prog (I would counterargue that they overlap and there is often no clear dividing line).

Here is how Proto-punk is defined at rateyourmusic:

Rate Your Music on Proto-punk wrote: Proto-punk is a fairly vague term used to describe music that either influenced or resembled Punk Rock before the commercial breakthrough of punk in 1976. Common characteristics include provocative attitude, use of noise or abrasiveness, wild, untamed energy and stripped-down simplicity. It's closely associated with the Garage Rock music of the 1960s. Sometimes the line between proto-punk and punk rock is blurred – even artists who belonged to the CBGB punk scene of the early-to-mid 1970s have been labelled proto-punk simply because they predate the commercial breakthrough of Sex Pistols.

I don't have a problem with this, and would have said that VU has proto-punk or punk-like qualities on albums just by using my own ears and also know it had an influence on punk.

I am barely a member of RYM (well, I have an account but only used it briefly), funny how often I have defended it, but I think people have been unfair and careless in criticisms.

Edited by Logan - December 08 2024 at 15:03

siLLy puPPy wrote: ^ i love RYM. It's the best music database on the interweb as far as i'm concerned and doesn't have the ANNOYING deadbeat owner problems that this site does. Also i can make cool lists there like my ANGSTY ORIGINS: The History of PROTO-PUNK and the Artists That Led to a Movement Like this doesn't link for whatever retarded reason. https://rateyourmusic.com/list/siLLy_puPPy/angsty-origins-the-history-of-proto-punk-and-the-artists-that-led-to-a-movement/

Cristi wrote: siLLy puPPy wrote: ^ i love RYM. It's the best music database on the interweb as far as i'm concerned and doesn't have the ANNOYING deadbeat owner problems that this site does. Also i can make cool lists there like my ANGSTY ORIGINS: The History of PROTO-PUNK and the Artists That Led to a Movement Like this doesn't link for whatever retarded reason. https://rateyourmusic.com/list/siLLy_puPPy/angsty-origins-the-history-of-proto-punk-and-the-artists-that-led-to-a-movement/ Proto-punk is not a music genre, anything proto-whatever is not a genre, just an umbrella term that explains the roots or the origins of a genre, retrospectively.

Hmmm... what about none? Can't stand punk.

siLLy puPPy wrote: ^ i love RYM. It's the best music database on the interweb as far as i'm concerned and doesn't have the ANNOYING deadbeat owner problems that this site does.

Edited by David_D - December 09 2024 at 13:52

A Crimson Mellotron wrote: Hmmm... what about none? Can't stand punk.

Does that include all post-punk and all music that you would consider to be punk related?

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By the way, my list before which I thought I might get called out on for some additions, goes into more than what I would consider just punk, but punky music and punk related music.   While I compiled this from some polls I made, it still took some time to edit and add here and I thought it may be seen to have some value to the list-making and discussion and quickly fell several pages down.

Bauhaus: In the Flat Field (1980) / The Sky's Gone Out (1982)
Black Country, New Road: For the First Time (2021) / Ants From Up There (2022)
black midi: Schlagenheim (2019) / Hellfire (2022)
Camberwell Now: The Ghost Trade (1986) / Dejaunost v študentskem (Live, 1987)
Cardiacs: A Little Man and a House and the Whole World Window (1988) / On Land and in the Sea (1989)
Nick Cave and The Bad Seeds: Your Funeral ... My Trial (1986) / Let Love In (1994)
The Chameleons: Script of the Bridge (1983) / Strange Times (1986)
Cocteau Twins: Garlands (1982) / Head Over Heels (1983)
The Comsat Angels: Waiting for a Miracle (1980) / Sleep No More (1981)
The Cure: Pornography (1982) / Disintegration (1989)
Daughters: Daughters (2010) / You Won't Get What You Want (2018)
Deep Turtle: Snakefish (EP, 1992) / There's a Vomitsprinkler in My Liverriver (1994)
Devo: Q: Are We Not Men? A: We Are Devo! (1978) / Duty Now for the Future (1979)
Dog Faced Hermans: Hum of Life (1993) / Those Deep Buds (1994)
Echo & The Bunnymen: Porcupine (1983) / Ocean Rain (1984)
The Fall: Hex Enduction Hour (1982) / Perverted Language (1983)
Faraquet: Faraquet / Akarso (EP, 1999) / The View From This Tower (2000)
Geese: Projector (2021) / 3D Country (2023)
IDLES: Brutalism (2017) / Joy as an Act of Resistance. (2018)
Interpol: Turn on the Bright Lights (1982) / Antics (2004)
Joy Division: Unknown Pleasures (1979) / Closer (1980)
Killing Joke: Killing Joke (1980) / Night Time (1985)
Magazine: Real Life (1978) / Secondhand Daylight (1979)
Melt-Banana: Cell-Scape (2003) / Fetch (2013)
Minutemen: What Makes a Man Start Fires? (1983) / Double Nickels on the Dime (1984)
Mission of Burma: Vs. (1982) / The Obliterati (2006)
The National: Alligator (2005) / Boxer (2007)
Colin Newman: A-Z (1980) / Not To (1982)
Parquet Courts: Light Up Gold (2012) / Wide Awake (2018)
Pere Ubu: The Modern Dance (1978) / Dub Housing (1978)
Iggy Pop: The Idiot (1977) / Lust for Life (1977)
Protomartyr: The Agent Intellect (2015) / Relatives in Descent (2017)
Public Image Ltd.: Metal Box (1979) / The Flowers of Romance (1981)
Siouxsie and The Banshees: Juju (1981) / Tinderbox (1986)
The Sisters of Mercy: First and Last and Always (1985) / Floodland (1987)
Skids: Days in Europa (1979) / The Absolute Game (1980)
Patti Smith: Horses (1975) / Radio Ethiopia (1976)
The Sound: Jeopardy (1980) / From the Lions Mouth (1981)
Sumo: Divididos por la felicidad (1985) / Llegando los monos (1986)
Squid: Bright Green Field (2021) / O Monolith (2023)
Swans: Children of God (1987) / The Great Annihilator (1995)
Talking Heads: Fear of Music (1979) / Remain in Light (1980)
Television: Marquee Moon (1977) / Adventure (1978)
Thinking Fellers Union Local 282: Mother of All Saints (1992) / Strangers From the Universe (1994)
This Heat: This Heat (1979) / Deceit (1981)
Tuxedomoon: Desire (1981) / Holy Wars (1985)
Violent Femmes: Violent Femmes (1983) / Hallowed Ground (1984)
Wipers: Is This Real? (1980) / Youth of America (1981)
Wire: Chairs Missing (1978) / 154 (1979)
XTC: Drums and Wires (1979) / Black Sea (1980)

Various of those are questionable, but it's a quality and relation that I see in all of these.

David_D wrote: To all Punk purists, I can also tell that I now write in my OP: "My own list is based on RateYourMusic's retrospective and very broad Punk definition......"

I was saying punk or related for my list, and Patti Smith does seem punk associated to me (has punky/ punk-like qualities to me ears). I see that RateYourMusic classifies Horses primarily as Proto-Punk, Singer-Songwriter, Art Rock, and Radio Ethiopia primarily as Art Rock, Proto-Punk.

As for XTC, I would put those in the having Post-Punk qualities category.

Generally I much prefer what will often fall into Post-Punk than Punk proper.

I offered the RYM description of Proto-punk in this thread already, here is how they (Rate Your Music) describe Post-Punk (not that I have been using that as my main music site resouce for long enough that I often tend to associate the way they do):

RYM wrote: With its roots in the mid to late 1970s, post-punk emerged alongside the initial Punk Rock explosion in the United Kingdom. While retaining punk rock's focus on trimming away excess, post-punk tends to place more importance on creating atmosphere and usually has more complex songwriting than punk rock. Musicians tend to be much more experimental, often incorporating influences from Dub, Funk, Krautrock, Art Rock, Experimental music, and Electronic music. Unlike New Wave, its more Pop-based counterpart which emerged around the same time, post-punk often deals with more serious subject matter. Stylistically, the genre has a general backbone consisting of a prominent, pulsating sound and rhythm section of bass and drums. On top of this arrangement are atmospheric, spiky, interweaving lead guitar lines commonly described as "angular", creating a cold and melancholic tone with extensive use of minor key melodies. Vocals tend to be menacing, monotone and in some cases, even robotic. Public Image Ltd., formed after the implosion of Sex Pistols, are often heralded as the first post-punk band, although artists in the New York punk scene like Television had been much earlier playing an experimental style of punk rock that would later be classified by some as post-punk. Other (mostly British) bands followed, including Joy Division, Talking Heads, Gang of Four, and Wire and the genre came into its own in the late 70s, reaching its underground peak in the early to mid 80s. Post-punk's underground popularity helped create many offshoots. Its sorrowful atmosphere was merged with increasing theatrics and influences from Glam Rock to create Gothic Rock, which bands like The Cure and The Sisters of Mercy leveraged to great chart success in the late 80s and helped form the pervasive Goth subculture. The bouncy syncopation and overall funkiness of post-punk bass is exploited to its maximum in Dance-Punk which saw mainstream popularity in the mid 2000s. Coldwave, popular in continental Europe and especially France, was a colder, more methodical affair which took influence from the avant-garde and science fiction. No Wave was a New York-based movement which took influence from post-punk and punk rock but focused on experimentation above all else. Post-punk's first wave saw a decline in underground popularity after the mid 80s as it was subsumed by new wave, gothic rock, Alternative Rock, and Alternative Dance, all genres which took heavy influence from the original post-punk movement. After a period of declining interest in the 1990s, a mainstream Post-Punk Revival emerged in the early 2000s centred around the New York City scene, with bands like The Strokes and Interpol spearheading a movement which took influence from earlier post-punk bands but had an increased focus on Indie Rock and pop song structures. This approach allowed the revival to quickly spread worldwide, with bands outside New York joining the fray, including Franz Ferdinand and Bloc Party. The movement was incredibly successful with multiple bands obtaining chart hits and was heralded by publications such as NME as a "new rock revival", although it ultimately proved to be short-lived as other strains of indie rock took over by the mid 2000s. An underground resurgence of interest in the genre developed in the early 2010s with bands like Preoccupations and Protomartyr eschewing the earlier revival's focus on accessibility and returning to the punk and experimental ethos of first wave post-punk.

Edited by Logan - December 09 2024 at 11:41

siLLy puPPy wrote: David_D wrote: siLLy puPPy wrote: ^ i love RYM. It's the best music database on the interweb as far as i'm concerned and doesn't have the ANNOYING deadbeat owner problems that this site does. That was actually grotesque if you ask me, and I have a very good knowledge of the two sites as well.  What's grotesque is that this site crashes on me almost every time I visit it. The forum doesn't work, messages don't work etc etc etc NEVER happens on RYM which is impeccably maintained and updated regularly.