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TGM: Orb 
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: October 21 2007 Location: n/a Status: Offline Points: 8052 |
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 Posted: September 12 2008 at 18:26 |
Just answering this: Prior to me getting hold of The Least We Can Do Is Wave To Each Other, Pawn Hearts was my least favourite VDGG album, and not as enjoyable as three of their others. Nonetheless, it'd still be in my top 20 albums of all time and I would consider it a masterpiece (see review for complete explanation). Believe this guy's in the same situation, and I felt he did well justifying his position. |
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micky
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46838 |
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Posted: September 13 2008 at 13:07 |
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hahahhah... not surprised at all.... he has done that before. The last time he left in a huff. There is a right way to express your displeasure and leave if you chose to.. and some to their credit have taken the high road ...then again some don't. Shame the review has to be used as a place to voice that.
Edited by micky - September 13 2008 at 13:08 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 37240 |
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Posted: September 13 2008 at 13:12 |
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EDIT: Following Ivan's advice, moving post.
Edited by Logan - September 13 2008 at 21:53 |
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micky
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46838 |
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Posted: September 13 2008 at 13:25 |
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amen Greg
 .... could say more... but why bother.. and this isn't the place for it anyway. |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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debrewguy
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
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Posted: September 14 2008 at 20:47 |
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http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=182308
Aha, another intelligent person giving an album the review/rating it deserves. Thank You Ivan ! Could we get more Ange reviews from those who know them ? |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Easy Livin
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Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 21 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 15585 |
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Posted: September 18 2008 at 16:52 |
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I've quoted the following post form the reviews reporting. What do others think? Has there been any breach of our guidelines, or is the reviewer just expressing his opinion? (I've asked the reviewer to pop by too)
Edited by Easy Livin - September 18 2008 at 16:53 |
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Ricochet
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 27 2005 Location: Nauru Status: Offline Points: 46301 |
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Posted: September 18 2008 at 17:02 |
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Without any knowledge of the album itself:
The first intro track is just a filling - could stay, the "reporter"'s issue with not enough expressed subjectivity ("is better use the words I THINK this track")isn't much of a problem IMO. makes me just laugh - can be cut out, if it's the reviewer's only way of saying he doesn't appreciate the track (cause it's not that he's amused, from what I can understand); these sort of expressions, either way, are indeed poor seems like the track is recorded in a pop-latin club in Cuba,it is just unbearable... below average latin-poppish stuff that I can't afford not sure if 100% xenophobic, but not without some problems either; the problem is in the expression, had he mentioned that he doesn't like the musical style or the recording production, instead of pointing out that music coming from certain places is unbearable, plus, in the second case, had he not added an ambiguous term such as "afford", the line would have been better. In other words, saying latin-poppish (an attempt of terming) is bad is okay (and subjective, of course), but pointing out clubs in Cuba for bad-mojoed recordings sounds fishy. Edited by Ricochet - September 18 2008 at 17:04 |
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Easy Money
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Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10679 |
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Posted: September 18 2008 at 17:54 |
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Hi Usulprog and welcome to PA, I like the way you think.
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Atkingani
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Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: October 21 2005 Location: Terra Brasilis Status: Offline Points: 12288 |
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Posted: September 18 2008 at 18:03 |
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One of the great features of prog (rock) is the capacity to grab, to absorb influences from the countries and cultures where this genre is produced, which provides a myriad of different sounds and possibilities. Anyway, for most people, since it came originally from the Anglo-Saxon part of the world (UK leading), one tends to believe that there lies the main line and the others are mere variations of the original, but they aren't.
Another great feature is the capacity of prog-fans to understand and accept that everywhere the local spices will be sprayed and sometimes will prevail over the sound considered 'standard'. This is a learning that takes time and varies from listener to listener - there's no official rule of when or if it'll happen.
Considering the above said, it's natural to feel angry and disappointed when something that's an inherent part of your culture, your background, your soul is misunderstood or seen as exotic or quaint. It won't happen only if the two mentioned features are attained and to reach this point we need a bridge, not a wall.
I'd rather give an open hand instead of a jab... let the reviewer edit by himself or if preferred to delete the entire text and return to it in a more appropriate occasion (if the bridge is complete and the path is clear).
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Guigo
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Atavachron
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65616 |
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Posted: September 18 2008 at 18:22 |
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thank you for those words Guigo, I think the biggest issue with the review is how it's written and the writer's emotional involvement.. whereas an intelligent, informed and convincing review will always be respected and still get the points across
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 37240 |
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Posted: September 18 2008 at 18:24 |
Very nicely said!
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NotAProghead
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Errors & Omissions Team Joined: October 22 2005 Location: Russia Status: Offline Points: 7956 |
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Posted: September 18 2008 at 19:37 |
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I don't know what about reviews talk more: about music or about reviewers themselves.
To this particular case - take it easy, there are lots of people here admiring Los Jaivas music. |
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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
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Posted: September 18 2008 at 20:18 |
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I know the album very well, as a fact I saw the TV debut presentation of it in 1980 or 1981 on Televisión Peruna S.A. so I can dare to say:
The first intro track is just a filling - A person that says this, has absolutely no knowledge, the song tries to create a mood that would be followed among the album
makes me just laugh - If a dramatic poem by Pablo Neruda makes him laugh, I can only assume one of two situations
seems like the track is recorded in a pop-latin club in Cuba,it is just unbearable...
below average latin-poppish stuff that I can't afford Well, the guy is clueless, Cuba is not famous for it's Pop-Latin clubs, this is just absurd (I been in Varadero twice and visited Havana also) and the only thing you find outside the hotels is Salsa and Son Cubano places, both of which don't have the slightest relation with Latin Pop, ergo...... there's no relation between Cuba and Latin-Pop. I don't believe tourists go to Cuba (The country where Salsa was born) to listen POP...It's like visiting Greece to listen Salsa.
 BTW: Somebody tell this "reviewer" that Amor Americano is as far from POP as King Crimson is from Menudo, this song is a HUAYNO, clear and perfect, this is Andean music from the high mountains of Perú, written by people who haven't heard POP in their fuc*ing life.
So it's better to ignore the guy, he's talking without any knowledge, I read his whole review and it's absolutely silly, saying that the dramatic vocals of "Sube a Nacer Conmigo Hermano" by the late "Gato" Alquinta are bad, is simply absurd. Iván Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 18 2008 at 20:52 |
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Alberto Muñoz
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: July 26 2006 Location: Mexico Status: Offline Points: 3577 |
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Posted: September 18 2008 at 20:35 |
The album has no pop-latin club sound at all, perhaps the reviewer have never visit any country of latin america (he´s from Greece BTW)
 .I do not think of xenophobic i think more as a total lack of knowing latin american music as a whole.
I think that the reviewer has no idea of what he's putting in the review.
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Alberto Muñoz
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 26 2006 Location: Mexico Status: Offline Points: 3577 |
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Posted: September 18 2008 at 20:42 |
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I always recommend this, before you dare to do a review of an album FIRST you have to listen several times that album, and search for any useful information about the group and the country that belong that group and then with a muse inspiration write the review. |
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NotAProghead
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Errors & Omissions Team Joined: October 22 2005 Location: Russia Status: Offline Points: 7956 |
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Posted: September 18 2008 at 21:03 |
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^ Writing negative reviews is easy. Who will search information, if he/she does not like some artist's music?
Usually I try to know more if I like some band (artist). Writing positive review takes more time, at least for me. |
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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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NotAProghead
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Errors & Omissions Team Joined: October 22 2005 Location: Russia Status: Offline Points: 7956 |
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Posted: September 18 2008 at 21:30 |
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By the way, if we are talking of Los Jaivas, I highly recommend to watch this video from YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJxOx3oEUqw Gato's funeral. National tragedy for Chile. And my God, how Gato's bandmates played there "Sube a Nacer Conmigo Hermano"! |
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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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Usulprog
Forum Newbie 
Joined: August 25 2008 Location: Chile Status: Offline Points: 3 |
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Posted: September 19 2008 at 15:36 |
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I feel very happy in PA there are people that understand the musical diversity, and with that, the cultural diversity. Thinking better the issue, I believe the word "xenophobic" isn´t a accurate word, the person that wrote the review, in my opinion, shows only lack of knowledge. Ricochet: pointing out that music coming from certain places is unbearable I think because these lines I found a "xenophobic" element on the review. He refers to a place, located in a country, and devaluates it. Easy Money: Hi Usulprog and welcome to PA, I like the way you think. Thanks bro, I like this site very much, and I wish to stay a long time Atkingani: One of the great features of prog (rock) is the capacity to grab, to absorb influences from the countries and cultures where this genre is produced, which provides a myriad of different sounds and possibilities. Anyway, for most people, since it came originally from the Anglo-Saxon part of the world (UK leading), one tends to believe that there lies the main line and the others are mere variations of the original, but they aren't. Another great feature is the capacity of prog-fans to understand
and accept that everywhere the local spices will be sprayed and
sometimes will prevail over the sound considered 'standard'. This is a
learning that takes time and varies from listener to listener - there's
no official rule of when or if it'll happen.
Considering the above said, it's natural to feel angry and
disappointed when something that's an inherent part of your culture,
your background, your soul is misunderstood or seen as exotic or
quaint. It won't happen only if the two mentioned features are attained
and to reach this point we need a bridge, not a wall.
I'd rather give an open hand instead of a jab... let the reviewer
edit by himself or if preferred to delete the entire text and return to
it in a more appropriate occasion (if the bridge is complete and the
path is clear). You understand very well my feelings friend, when I read the review I felt very upset and a little sad, because I think the music is a beautiful way to gather, not to separate. And if I write about an album from any country, obviously, I´m writing about this country and its culture too. So, It´s neccesary have knowledge about the original rythms, the instruments, etc. And it doesn´t mean I like all the music of the wolrd, but if I´ll put one star or no stars to a disc, it doesn´t matter, but carefully with the arguments. This is the point I think. For example, if I refer to the music of Os Mutantes like a "tropical sound that i can´t stand, it doesn´t have any prog!", I´ll showing only IGNORANCE. Atavachron: I think the biggest issue with the review is how it's written Gotcha, if the reviewer would said he doesn´t like the album with other words, no problem, but I think there are manners and manners. Ivan_Melgar_M: (...) You said anything. Excellent. I hope the reviewer will read your well detailed exposition. zafreth: I do not think of xenophobic i think more as a total lack of knowing latin american music as a whole. I agree. x4. And he forgets the prog is an amalgam of several styles. And if you´ll talk about folk prog, more careful! You´re talking about culture, languages, history, identity. NotAProgHead: Gato's funeral. National tragedy for Chile. ...I went to the funeral with my mother and two friends. It was very emotive and sad. There was a loooooong file to see him. Los jaivas bro, are a bridge between generations and a piece of chilean identity. They are populars, naturals...they are an essential part of our folklore Cheers from Chile friends! Its a pleasure share with all of you  |
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Hermano de la mano un mar de gente me enseñará, cómo hacer hablar al sentimiento...
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Ricochet
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 27 2005 Location: Nauru Status: Offline Points: 46301 |
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Posted: September 19 2008 at 15:42 |
Hi usulprog That was actually my point, though I was more implying the reviewer could have said it differently: he could have refered, in a negative way, to the style, instead of focusing on a place. Sorry for the confusions in my text.  |
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apps79
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 15 2007 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 1551 |
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Posted: September 20 2008 at 04:31 |
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Hello to the whole forum... Seems like I've been attacked by all of you for my review for LOS JAIVAS...Firstly I would like to say that every review in progarchives is subjective...I respect all of the reviewers here and I will never report a review in this site cause everyone has its opinions about a specific album unless I find a review written in blasphemy...Secondly I admit that I'm not in touch in chilean music...I've been in several cuban-latin clubs here in Greece just to have fun and come in touch with the latin sound and it is logical for me that a couple of tracks in this album remind me of such moments...But when it come to prog,I can't rate them as latin tracks but as progressive ones...The word ''pop'' refers to the accesibility of the sound and that these tracks are definitely and easily approached by other people who have nothing to do with prog and not with the specific genre of ''pop music'' as this one doesn't exactly exist...There isn't a specific definition of what ''pop'' is...For me ''pop'' it's accesible almost mainstream moments of music...and some moments of this album are just pop to me...Thirdly,yes,I do not understand the lyrical content, I speak only greek,english and german,but I have never ever rated an album by its lyrics,I'M only focusing on music so I can be fair with all the bands...Otherwise I would only listen to bands with english,greek or german lyrics... Maybe the words I used look like I do not respect Chile or Cuba or Latin America in general...But that's not the way it is...and didn'y mean to hurt anybody's feelings or any country...It all comes to prog terms...Of course I'm not xenophobic and I have written other negative reviews with the demanded respect...Lastly I would like to say that I have no problem if the administrators' team deletes my review...As I have said everything it's subjective... Take care all of you...
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chopper wrote:
Scarsick... a highly underrated album. While Scarsick is my least
favorite PoS album thus far, it is by no means bad. The band continues
to blur the line seperating different genres and has made something
that's different from everything they've done before it. This is easily
the least progressive album they've released, but that doesn't keep me
from loving it. 
Sorry but I can't follow the opinions of the other reviwers in this one...This is just an uneven disc,it has some interesting moments but it has some very pop stuff also...