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Man With Hat
Collaborator
Jazz-Rock/Fusion/Canterbury Team
Joined: March 12 2005
Location: Neurotica
Status: Offline
Points: 166183
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Posted: December 26 2020 at 16:25 |
The Doctor wrote:
SteveG wrote:
That's an excellent point. What does the government get out of it? Very little. This is quite different from the social restrictions or mind control that one finds in Orwell's 1984. That type of micro managing had a purpose. |
A more obedient population, just like in 1984. I know I don't, and you probably don't think that way either, but for some power is its own reward. I'm not saying the government should do nothing. But it's methods have become far too invasive. When the government, for any reason, can mandate small businesses out of business and effect massive wealth transfers from small business to multi-national corporations, that's more power than I want my government to have. And that's just one of the abuses. People have to work and when it comes to essential jobs, every job is essential for the person relying on that paycheck.
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I don't disagree that there are people (even a large number of people) that want power to keep power and would do anything to keep it. But out of curiosity, what measures would you take to prevent the spread of a pandemic (for society at large, not just stuff you are doing for yourself)?
Also, hi doc! Good to see you are still around.
Edited by Man With Hat - December 26 2020 at 16:30
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Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20616
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Posted: December 26 2020 at 17:12 |
The Doctor wrote:
SteveG wrote:
That's an excellent point. What does the government get out of it? Very little. This is quite different from the social restrictions or mind control that one finds in Orwell's 1984. That type of micro managing had a purpose. |
A more obedient population, just like in 1984. I know I don't, and you probably don't think that way either, but for some power is its own reward. I'm not saying the government should do nothing. But it's methods have become far too invasive. When the government, for any reason, can mandate small businesses out of business and effect massive wealth transfers from small business to multi-national corporations, that's more power than I want my government to have. And that's just one of the abuses. People have to work and when it comes to essential jobs, every job is essential for the person relying on that paycheck.
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Well, we seem to have gone full circle on this discussion. The idea of a less intrusive or controlling government is just that. An idea. We either have a completely muted government that doesn't get involved in public health and welfare or we have what we have now. I'll take what we have now instead of the opposite.
Edited by SteveG - December 27 2020 at 03:54
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: December 26 2020 at 18:30 |
I do confess I struggle to understand these debates. Say, about Christmas. We kept temples shut for months and months here. Muslims made sacrifices to their Ramadan rituals too. It had to be done. Nobody likes doing it and I agree exactly with what ken says - nobody in power NOW actually wants the responsibility of dealing with covid. I bet even Jacinda doesn't, even though she succeeded brilliantly in handling it and won her party a bigger mandate. It's nerve wracking and it's thrown their budgets completely out of gear. There are bigger agendas at play but I don't think they are related to safety measures to curb the spread of the virus. To me, the bigger problem is leaders failing to set an example for what they want the people to do and the likes of Newsom /Breed not adhering to the restrictions they want people to follow is not going to help matters. I think the leaders have to show, first and foremost, that they are willing to make the sacrifices they expect the population to. If they don't, it is but natural that people would resent submitting to such restrictions.
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Status: Offline
Points: 8543
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Posted: December 26 2020 at 19:33 |
Man With Hat wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
SteveG wrote:
That's an excellent point. What does the government get out of it? Very little. This is quite different from the social restrictions or mind control that one finds in Orwell's 1984. That type of micro managing had a purpose. |
A more obedient population, just like in 1984. I know I don't, and you probably don't think that way either, but for some power is its own reward. I'm not saying the government should do nothing. But it's methods have become far too invasive. When the government, for any reason, can mandate small businesses out of business and effect massive wealth transfers from small business to multi-national corporations, that's more power than I want my government to have. And that's just one of the abuses. People have to work and when it comes to essential jobs, every job is essential for the person relying on that paycheck.
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I don't disagree that there are people (even a large number of people) that want power to keep power and would do anything to keep it. But out of curiosity, what measures would you take to prevent the spread of a pandemic (for society at large, not just stuff you are doing for yourself)?
Also, hi doc! Good to see you are still around.
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Howdy Hatman. Good to see you. I would have government in more of an advisory and support role, rather than a dictatorial role, especially when they have the power to ruin people's lives over a virus, that yes, it's bad. It probably kills 1-2% of the people it infects. But let's face it, ain't nobody having dreams about Mother Abigail or Randall Flagg over this virus. Humanity isn't on the verge of extinction here because of COVID. I can see quarantining the sick, and even mask and social distance advisories are good. Hell, even advising people to avoid travel and large gatherings during the holidays is acceptable. Helping hospitals with supplies and personnel from the military would not be uncalled for either. But beyond that, shutting down businesses and fining and arresting people who are at risk of losing their livelihood, no. Some people like a government all up in their business and in everyone else's business. I don't. We don't need tyranny. The people want leadership and advice and assistance, but not draconian measures.
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10669
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Posted: December 26 2020 at 20:10 |
^ I suppose its hard to draw the line sometimes. I personally don't need the government's help as I know how to stay safe, but to use a different issue as an example, when I was young there were people who thought it was government tyranny when they had to let black people sit at the same lunch counter as themselves. My point being that some of these arguments being presented here give me a sense of deja vu, and I am familiar with the people who cling to these arguments.
I know the two issues may seem entirely different, but just as staring point, do you think desegregation of lunch counters in the US was government tyranny?
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
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Points: 8543
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Posted: December 26 2020 at 20:40 |
Easy Money wrote:
^ I suppose its hard to draw the line sometimes. I personally don't need the government's help as I know how to stay safe, but to use a different issue as an example, when I was young there were people who thought it was government tyranny when they had to let black people sit at the same lunch counter as themselves. My point being that some of these arguments being presented here give me a sense of deja vu, and I am familiar with the people who cling to these arguments.
I know the two issues may seem entirely different, but just as staring point, do you think desegregation of lunch counters in the US was government tyranny? |
So anytime someone objects to government overreach and doesn't want to live under a despotic government must be a racist yokel. Nice. Now I remember why I stopped coming around. I'm out. Carry on with government worship echo chamber.
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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progaardvark
Collaborator
Crossover/Symphonic/RPI Teams
Joined: June 14 2007
Location: Sea of Peas
Status: Offline
Points: 51479
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Posted: December 26 2020 at 22:22 |
I can't speak for what governments are doing in Europe or even in parts of the United States, but my state and neighboring states have been using the guidance of epidemiologists to determine what gets closed and what kinds of practices we should be doing. The primary goal was to prevent health care systems from collapsing. I wouldn't call anything they've done as an overreach. It seems to me that in some cases they didn't do enough.
The economic side of this is unfortunate and it could have been softened if we had had better politicians in Washington, an actual real life president than the ass we've had for the last four years, and a more well-informed population than we currently do. The states just don't have the resources to save businesses from collapsing. Only the most adaptable of businesses will survive this I'm afraid. I wish it were otherwise.
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---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions
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Man With Hat
Collaborator
Jazz-Rock/Fusion/Canterbury Team
Joined: March 12 2005
Location: Neurotica
Status: Offline
Points: 166183
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Posted: December 27 2020 at 00:35 |
progaardvark wrote:
I can't speak for what governments are doing in Europe or even in parts of the United States, but my state and neighboring states have been using the guidance of epidemiologists to determine what gets closed and what kinds of practices we should be doing. The primary goal was to prevent health care systems from collapsing. I wouldn't call anything they've done as an overreach. It seems to me that in some cases they didn't do enough.
The economic side of this is unfortunate and it could have been softened if we had had better politicians in Washington, an actual real life president than the ass we've had for the last four years, and a more well-informed population than we currently do. The states just don't have the resources to save businesses from collapsing. Only the most adaptable of businesses will survive this I'm afraid. I wish it were otherwise. |
I couldn't have said it better myself.
But, we get what we deserve.
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Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10669
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Posted: December 27 2020 at 01:50 |
The Doctor wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
^ I suppose its hard to draw the line sometimes. I personally don't need the government's help as I know how to stay safe, but to use a different issue as an example, when I was young there were people who thought it was government tyranny when they had to let black people sit at the same lunch counter as themselves. My point being that some of these arguments being presented here give me a sense of deja vu, and I am familiar with the people who cling to these arguments.
I know the two issues may seem entirely different, but just as staring point, do you think desegregation of lunch counters in the US was government tyranny? |
So anytime someone objects to government overreach and doesn't want to live under a despotic government must be a racist yokel. Nice. Now I remember why I stopped coming around. I'm out. Carry on with government worship echo chamber.
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Wow, you sure jumped to some conclusions there. Apparently you didn't understand what I was saying at all.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20616
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Posted: December 27 2020 at 04:01 |
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin
Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23104
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Posted: December 27 2020 at 04:29 |
^Yet you are doing the exact same thing
I do however agree. Talking about these things over the net without the possibility of groking other people's facial expression or how they fiddle about whilst you debate them...always ends up in kindergarten schoolings instead of appraoching one another by way of language and interest. Looking at this whole thread and it dawns on me that nobody here is interested in learning anything other than what underscores their own thoughts and ideas.
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13721
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Posted: December 27 2020 at 04:34 |
Easy Money wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
^ I suppose its hard to draw the line sometimes. I personally don't need the government's help as I know how to stay safe, but to use a different issue as an example, when I was young there were people who thought it was government tyranny when they had to let black people sit at the same lunch counter as themselves. My point being that some of these arguments being presented here give me a sense of deja vu, and I am familiar with the people who cling to these arguments.
I know the two issues may seem entirely different, but just as staring point, do you think desegregation of lunch counters in the US was government tyranny? |
So anytime someone objects to government overreach and doesn't want to live under a despotic government must be a racist yokel. Nice. Now I remember why I stopped coming around. I'm out. Carry on with government worship echo chamber.
| Wow, you sure jumped to some conclusions there. Apparently you didn't understand what I was saying at all. |
I understand precisely what you are saying. This is an argument which was started around about the time that a very hairy looking chap decided that humanity would be better off by climbing down from its nice trees and become hunter-gatherers, and became the leader of a growing bunch of fellow hairy-looking chaps .
I will, though, use your example to try and be consistent in my arguments. I probably shouldn’t have to do this, but I will firstly point out to all and sundry that I actively loathe racism and societal harm to the most vulnerable.
The simple answer to your question (and it is not a simplistic debate, as I will explain) is that, yes, there were many people in your neck of the woods who would have considered desegregation of lunch counters to represent a tyranny on the part of US government in Washington. From that moment on, it became virtually impossible for a Democrat Presidential candidate to win a majority across a swathe of Southern States, and the roots of Trumpalot and his brand of populism can be traced back to this directly (unintended consequences, and all that).
My own view is that no matter how wrong we might consider local laws to be sometimes, governance of people should, wherever possible, be devolved to the lowest possible local level so that yes, should the good folk of Little Rock, Arkansas, for example, want segregation as opposed to the good folk of Memphis, Tennessee, who vote against, then that should be their right. I might not agree with said good folk, but that is the absolute consequence of my belief in a type of local democracy.
My view is that what is considered good for the people of, say, Cumbria in England by the government of London is very rarely the same as what the good citizens of Cumbria consider to be good for them. The same applies for trying to govern deepest Arkansas from Washington. My opinion is that we are far too centralised in our approach to governing, and that history tells us what happens to overbearing, over-centralised, and over-mighty bureaucracies - they fall, and said fall is usually accompanied by periods of massive human disruption such as war, pestilence, and plague.
Now then, the over-simplistic bit. I fully understand that a lot of people reading this post would want to jump in and say....”Hey Steve. You would be prepared to allow downtrodden black people to be forced to eat separately, to be segregated on buses, to go back to Jim Crow? Seriously, man?” To which my answer would be no, I don’t want that for the citizens of Little Rock, nor indeed anywhere. However, let us consider seriously the unintended consequences of national dictats. You will be aware, John, that there are vast swathes of the Southern part of your country where, even now, there are areas where only blacks live and congregate (usually quite poor), where only blacks eat, where only blacks get together to worship, and etc. In other words, society itself continues what are, in effect, Jim Crow without that even being part of the statute book. I know that the situation is nowhere near as bad as it was, but it does exist, as does the grinding poverty experienced by many people over there, a lot of which is caused by economic apartheid, something gleefully practised by governments and corporations worldwide and of all colours, hues, and ethnicity.
In other words, very powerful people tend to be very good at remaining very powerful people, form elites of very powerful people, do very well at sticking together, and do equally well at imposing their worldview on extremely reticent populace’s. It is such people and institutions that I tend to rail against. It explains, by the way, when I, a naturally liberal person (and I mean liberal in its classic sense, rather than the modern metropolitan type) voted for Brexit. It was not, as others implied here, a “immigration” thing. I couldn’t give a f**k where someone comes from. Indeed, my family is a mix of Maltese, English, and Ashkenazi Jew. I hold a Maltese citizenship. My reasons for voting to come out were an overbearing, anti democratic, and over centralised elite in the form of the European Commission imposing their values, rules, and norms on me.
To conclude, if the price of local democracy is local persons passing laws which I might find unpalatable, then so be it. The problems of racism have not gone away simply because Washington passed laws outlawing aspects of it. Indeed, many of the problems faced by repressed minorities have gotten a damned sight worse since the repeal of Jim Crow.
And very lastly, some might point out, understandably, that it is the height of hypocrisy for me, a civil servant, expounding such views and remaining a civil servant. They would be right. It is shockingly hypocritical, but, hey, it puts bread on the table, and it does not stop me wanting a better way of being governed, nor does it mean that I want to do away completely with national governments. I simply believe that it is always better if we seek to restrict as much as we can their power, and also empower local people to take as much control over their lives as is practicable.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20616
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Posted: December 27 2020 at 04:43 |
Guldbamsen wrote:
^Yet you are doing the exact same thing
I do however agree. Talking about these things over the net without the possibility of groking other people's facial expression or how they fiddle about whilst you debate them...always ends up in kindergarten schoolings instead of appraoching one another by way of language and interest. Looking at this whole thread and it dawns on me that nobody here is interested in learning anything other than what underscores their own thoughts and ideas. |
Not even close David. As Chester was absent from this forum for a long while, everyone with a desending opinion was gracious to him. There is no all encompassing right opinion in this debate. My own feeling is that governments have to do what is needed while at the same time they are enfringing on people's rights. If someone has a better idea to handle this pandamic I would welcome it because I simply don't.
Edited by SteveG - December 27 2020 at 05:30
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 09 2015
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14898
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Posted: December 27 2020 at 04:57 |
The Doctor wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
^ I suppose its hard to draw the line sometimes. I personally don't need the government's help as I know how to stay safe, but to use a different issue as an example, when I was young there were people who thought it was government tyranny when they had to let black people sit at the same lunch counter as themselves. My point being that some of these arguments being presented here give me a sense of deja vu, and I am familiar with the people who cling to these arguments.
I know the two issues may seem entirely different, but just as staring point, do you think desegregation of lunch counters in the US was government tyranny? |
So anytime someone objects to government overreach and doesn't want to live under a despotic government must be a racist yokel. Nice. Now I remember why I stopped coming around. I'm out. Carry on with government worship echo chamber.
| That's a very healthy attitude on controversial debate... not...
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 09 2015
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14898
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Posted: December 27 2020 at 05:01 |
Guldbamsen wrote:
^Yet you are doing the exact same thing
I do however agree. Talking about these things over the net without the possibility of groking other people's facial expression or how they fiddle about whilst you debate them...always ends up in kindergarten schoolings instead of appraoching one another by way of language and interest. Looking at this whole thread and it dawns on me that nobody here is interested in learning anything other than what underscores their own thoughts and ideas. | Well, I put some time into following Silly Puppy's links and doing some research, and indeed I learnt something, though not the stuff that he (and you?) probably wanted to convey. I very much appreciate your intelligent comments elsewhere (and your taste anyway), but I don't get why you think such a general negative statement with no informative value at all is the right thing to post here.
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Shadowyzard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 24 2020
Location: Davutlar
Status: Offline
Points: 4506
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Posted: December 27 2020 at 05:14 |
This thread inspired me to write a novel, entitled: "The Coven-19: The Madness of the Crowds & the Cockedness of the Brows".
Edited by Shadowyzard - December 27 2020 at 05:16
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 09 2015
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14898
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Posted: December 27 2020 at 05:15 |
@lazland: Great posting, some valuable points there... I'd say though that this is just one side of a field of tension. The people of Scotland voted to remain within the UK and within the EU, and now are torn between the two, with some wanting still more regional powers, one of which could be the possibility to rejoin the EU. In Germany the handling of Covid is a mess lilke anywhere else, but many Germans are convinced that the biggest mess is regional governments creating a jungle of regional rules that nobody understands and hardly anyone likes following different rules when they cross a regional border, nor do people tend to know what exactly holds on one side and on the other side of such a border. Still I'm very sure that all the German Laender would still vote to be part of a unified Germany with a central government. The jury is out on whether the majority would also prefer Covid rules to be more centralised, but from my observations I'd think so. What about local democracy when there's a majority for centralisation?
Furthermore, there always have to be borders for where rules hold, and inclusion can be as much of a problem as exclusion. There may be a part of your Little Rock, Arkansas in which black and white people live happily together and detest segregation, but they'd be forced under the general Little Rock rule... the problems that you want to avoid on the large scale are still there on the small scale.
A general ethical issue is whether some general principles such as freedom of speech and rejection of racism should overwrite majority decsions, be they in Little Rock, Wales, the UK, Germany or the US as a whole. I'm not saying I know the answers...
Edited by Lewian - December 27 2020 at 05:16
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin
Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23104
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Posted: December 27 2020 at 05:55 |
Lewian wrote:
Guldbamsen wrote:
^Yet you are doing the exact same thing
I do however agree. Talking about these things over the net without the possibility of groking other people's facial expression or how they fiddle about whilst you debate them...always ends up in kindergarten schoolings instead of appraoching one another by way of language and interest. Looking at this whole thread and it dawns on me that nobody here is interested in learning anything other than what underscores their own thoughts and ideas. |
Well, I put some time into following Silly Puppy's links and doing some research, and indeed I learnt something, though not the stuff that he (and you?) probably wanted to convey. I very much appreciate your intelligent comments elsewhere (and your taste anyway), but I don't get why you think such a general negative statement with no informative value at all is the right thing to post here.
| I am not defending the doc here. I am merely pointing out when people fight fire with fire they leave the entire discussion in flames. I think most in here merely use this thread as a sort of intellectual fencing joust..which is alright I guess...but it is nevertheless still rather easy to grok intent...especially if you have read the person’s previous posts on the topic.
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20616
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Posted: December 27 2020 at 06:03 |
Well, some do like to joust, no doubt. I think the bigger issue is going off topic. Most of Silly Puppy's posts really belong in another thread. That's not saying they are right or wrong but are just not germane to the conversation.
Edited by SteveG - December 27 2020 at 06:05
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10669
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Posted: December 27 2020 at 07:00 |
For the record, I don't think I have, or at least in recent memory, called anyone a name on the internet. I also try not to talk differently to people from behind a keyboard than I would to their face, Its a standard I try to hold myself to.
I will gladly discuss any issue with people and it never upsets me or makes me feel particularly heated. If the discussion becomes name calling or blanket accusations such as "your a _____ ", or "you called me a ____", then I would say the conversation is over and continuing on is not time well spent.
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