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Anthony H. View Drop Down
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Points: 6088 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 12:31
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Athough I am personally against abortion and would do my part to try and talk anyone that I know who might be in this situation out of having one, I am pro-choice.  I believe that it is an option that should be legally available, otherwise you go back to the days of them being performed in backrooms with rusty hangers. 

I must admit that in this day and age that it stuns me that people still have unwanted pregnancies with the availability of the pill and condoms and whatnot, and if you are so stupid to get into this situation then are these really people that we want breeding. (obviously, victims of rape and/or incest do not normally fall under the stupid factor). 


Absolutely perfect. Couldn't have said it better myself.
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Points: 22989 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 12:35
Originally posted by Anthony H. Anthony H. wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Athough I am personally against abortion and would do my part to try and talk anyone that I know who might be in this situation out of having one, I am pro-choice.  I believe that it is an option that should be legally available, otherwise you go back to the days of them being performed in backrooms with rusty hangers. 

I must admit that in this day and age that it stuns me that people still have unwanted pregnancies with the availability of the pill and condoms and whatnot, and if you are so stupid to get into this situation then are these really people that we want breeding. (obviously, victims of rape and/or incest do not normally fall under the stupid factor). 


Absolutely perfect. Couldn't have said it better myself.


Same here.
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 12:44
Originally posted by Deathrabbit Deathrabbit wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Athough I am personally against abortion and would do my part to try and talk anyone that I know who might be in this situation out of having one, I am pro-choice.  I believe that it is an option that should be legally available, otherwise you go back to the days of them being performed in backrooms with rusty hangers. 

I must admit that in this day and age that it stuns me that people still have unwanted pregnancies with the availability of the pill and condoms and whatnot, and if you are so stupid to get into this situation then are these really people that we want breeding. (obviously, victims of rape and/or incest do not normally fall under the stupid factor). 

You'd be surprised at the amount of guys who will refuse to use condoms.


I knew someone that never did Confused
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Points: 66555 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 12:49
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by Deathrabbit Deathrabbit wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Athough I am personally against abortion and would do my part to try and talk anyone that I know who might be in this situation out of having one, I am pro-choice.  I believe that it is an option that should be legally available, otherwise you go back to the days of them being performed in backrooms with rusty hangers. 

I must admit that in this day and age that it stuns me that people still have unwanted pregnancies with the availability of the pill and condoms and whatnot, and if you are so stupid to get into this situation then are these really people that we want breeding. (obviously, victims of rape and/or incest do not normally fall under the stupid factor). 

You'd be surprised at the amount of guys who will refuse to use condoms.


I knew someone that never did Confused


And if the girl is not on the pill and still willing to have sex with him then she would fall under one of those stupid people who probably shouldn't be breeding anyways.
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Points: 4625 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 12:56
I'm really against the pill. It made life hell, hormonally speaking, for a few of my friends. One of em, I don't think has ever been 100% right since, even tho she's been off for months. I think it should be used a lot more cautiously and prescribed with less reckless abandon.
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 13:37
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by Deathrabbit Deathrabbit wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Athough I am personally against abortion and would do my part to try and talk anyone that I know who might be in this situation out of having one, I am pro-choice.  I believe that it is an option that should be legally available, otherwise you go back to the days of them being performed in backrooms with rusty hangers. 

I must admit that in this day and age that it stuns me that people still have unwanted pregnancies with the availability of the pill and condoms and whatnot, and if you are so stupid to get into this situation then are these really people that we want breeding. (obviously, victims of rape and/or incest do not normally fall under the stupid factor). 

You'd be surprised at the amount of guys who will refuse to use condoms.


I knew someone that never did Confused


And if the girl is not on the pill and still willing to have sex with him then she would fall under one of those stupid people who probably shouldn't be breeding anyways.


You know either that or just someone who made a mistake like we all have.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 13:38
Originally posted by Deathrabbit Deathrabbit wrote:

I'm really against the pill. It made life hell, hormonally speaking, for a few of my friends. One of em, I don't think has ever been 100% right since, even tho she's been off for months. I think it should be used a lot more cautiously and prescribed with less reckless abandon.


I agree. I would say this about most medication actually.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 66555 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 13:43
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by Deathrabbit Deathrabbit wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Athough I am personally against abortion and would do my part to try and talk anyone that I know who might be in this situation out of having one, I am pro-choice.  I believe that it is an option that should be legally available, otherwise you go back to the days of them being performed in backrooms with rusty hangers. 

I must admit that in this day and age that it stuns me that people still have unwanted pregnancies with the availability of the pill and condoms and whatnot, and if you are so stupid to get into this situation then are these really people that we want breeding. (obviously, victims of rape and/or incest do not normally fall under the stupid factor). 

You'd be surprised at the amount of guys who will refuse to use condoms.


I knew someone that never did Confused


And if the girl is not on the pill and still willing to have sex with him then she would fall under one of those stupid people who probably shouldn't be breeding anyways.


You know either that or just someone who made a mistake like we all have.
I'm 41 and I've managed to not make that mistake.  That noone wanted to make that mistake with me is besides the point. Cry
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 13:45
I think abortion debates result in one group group demonizing and ridiculing another, which is the last thing that they should be about. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 4625 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 13:50
The argument is phrased that way, to deliberately be polarizing. One side calls themselves pro-life. That implies if you are against them, you hate life. The other is pro-choice. That implies if you are against them, you want to oppress women.

Edited by Deathrabbit - November 02 2011 at 13:50
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 13:55
Originally posted by Deathrabbit Deathrabbit wrote:

The argument is phrased that way, to deliberately be polarizing. One side calls themselves pro-life. That implies if you are against them, you hate life. The other is pro-choice. That implies if you are against them, you want to oppress women.


By whom? You seem to suggest its conscious. It's just an emotional thing. I think people need to check their emotions.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 4625 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 13:58
No, I think it is a conscious effort made by the leaders of the each political movement to demonize the other side. Politicians never benefit from a rational, level-headed discussion. They prefer a melee.
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 14:16
Originally posted by Deathrabbit Deathrabbit wrote:

No, I think it is a conscious effort made by the leaders of the each political movement to demonize the other side. Politicians never benefit from a rational, level-headed discussion. They prefer a melee.


I don't quite get why all opinions don't carry such vibrant terms if that is the case. I mean I agree with your assessment of politician's, but I don't think that's the origin here.
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Points: 12206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 14:28
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

The earth has 7 billion people. By 2025 there will be 10 billion, most of them starving and unwanted. Keep abortion legal, or start handing out saltpeter and condoms.


Some stats for that?


This is hardly news to anyone?

The United Nations yesterday revealed unsettling news about the world's population: Instead of leveling off at around 9 billion by 2050, the population will now reach 10.1 billion people by 2100 and keep growing. That projection from the U.N. Population Division reflects revised estimates of fertility particularly in developing countries. Demographer John Bongaarts, a vice president of the Population Council in New York City, spoke with ScienceInsider about why the outlook has changed:

The Dark Elf is just exaggerating a bit, but what he says is still valid. There should be born less people in the future, not more.


He said two things and you assumed I was objecting to the more easily measurable of the two statements he made?


Yes I did, because that's how your question looked to me. But I copied the beginning of the longer piece I made a link to. Further down:

...In the '90s some epidemiologists predicted that the population of Africa would decline because of AIDS. That has not happened. There have been a lot of deaths due to AIDs, but population momentum is so strong that we're going to have a billion more people in Africa by 2050 and 3.5 billion people in Africa by 2100.

That raises of course the question, "Can you feed all these people? Will this lead to a crisis of some kind?" That is quite possible. The U.N. does not take that into account in their projections. [So it could change] if you end up with massive civil wars in that region or you run out of food or there's another AIDS-like epidemic or another virus or something...

Not excactly stats, but things aren't looking too bright for the 3 500 000 000 extra africans of the future.
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 14:32
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:


Yes I did, because that's how your question looked to me. But I copied the beginning of the longer piece I made a link to. Further down:

...In the '90s some epidemiologists predicted that the population of Africa would decline because of AIDS. That has not happened. There have been a lot of deaths due to AIDs, but population momentum is so strong that we're going to have a billion more people in Africa by 2050 and 3.5 billion people in Africa by 2100.

That raises of course the question, "Can you feed all these people? Will this lead to a crisis of some kind?" That is quite possible. The U.N. does not take that into account in their projections. [So it could change] if you end up with massive civil wars in that region or you run out of food or there's another AIDS-like epidemic or another virus or something...

Not excactly stats, but things aren't looking too bright for the 3 500 000 000 extra africans of the future.


"Not exactly stats" is an understatement. I haven't seen any accurate resource model made. I also don't see the metric for measuring "unwanted".
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 13770 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 14:54
Every year, at my trade union conference, there is a debate about abortion. Every year, I take the view that it is a subject that we should stay away from, simply because it is polarised, emotive, and, more than anything else, a deeply personal issue - one of those issues for which there is simply no right or wrong, and, in my opinion, simply impossible to find a consensus and middle ground.

My own feeling on the matter is that there are two extremes here.

Number one - allow abortion at any price, and at any cost, for anyone. This particular extreme disturbs me greatly, in that it cheapens not only the act of sex, but of life itself - if you don't like, don't want, then simply throw away - the ultimate ideal of our modern society, to be honest.

Number two - no abortions at all, because such an act is contrary to the laws of God. Well, I've never seen such an act of God in the Bible, only a rather blinded interpretation by clerical "representatives" of God. Such a view takes no account of those tragic cases where quality of life would be so detrimental to the foetus that death would be a kindness, or, of course, birth would be fatal to the mother. In addition, if aborted foetuses are condemned to eternal damnation, as my church teaches, then Hell must be bloody full to the brim with the poor wretches. Also, I would not wish to believe in such an uncaring and damnable God - my God is one of love and forgiveness.

In conclusion, heaven protect us from extremists. As ever, the decision has to be one that is personal to the individual, with guidance, love, and support. I despair at both the cheap attitude to life and the extreme clerical view.
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 15:16
Not everyone who disagrees with abortion believes in a god. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Saperlipopette! View Drop Down
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Points: 12206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 15:22
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:



"Not exactly stats" is an understatement. I haven't seen any accurate resource model made. I also don't see the metric for measuring "unwanted".


I posted it because it adressed the second part of what Dark Elf wrote. You want stats for something that can't be measured. Whether the future extra 3 500 000 000 africans are wanted or unwanted is of little relevance the fact that there won't be food or water for them. There's too many people suffering and starving already, and in Africa more than anywhere else in the world.
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 15:25
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:



"Not exactly stats" is an understatement. I haven't seen any accurate resource model made. I also don't see the metric for measuring "unwanted".


I posted it because it adressed the second part of what Dark Elf wrote. You want stats for something that can't be measured. Whether the future extra 3 500 000 000 africans are wanted or unwanted is of little relevance the fact that there won't be food or water for them. There's too many people suffering and starving already, and in Africa more than anywhere else in the world.


No I don't. It was a rhetorical question. My point was that you shouldn't make statements like that when there's no way to even measure appropriately how unwanted an individual is.

With regards to the starving, you can use static resource models all you want when talking about population growth, but you're just going to get irrelevant results.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 16715 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 15:29
 
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

In addition, if aborted foetuses are condemned to eternal damnation, as my church teaches

THAT IS NOT WHAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TEACHES
 
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

I posted it because it adressed the second part of what Dark Elf wrote. You want stats for something that can't be measured. Whether the future extra 3 500 000 000 africans are wanted or unwanted is of little relevance the fact that there won't be food or water for them. There's too many people suffering and starving already, and in Africa more than anywhere else in the world.

You can, in fact, measure resources, but it is very difficult to predict future technology and trends.  


Edited by Henry Plainview - November 02 2011 at 15:30
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