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rogerthat 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
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Points: 9869
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 Posted: November 12 2011 at 01:30 |
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^^^^ Exploring more original use of clean guitar layers, and at the same time, taking distortion to new levels all happened AFTER the 70s or at least began only at the very end of the decade. But most of it happened outside prog, then a more keyboard-oriented genre.
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Manuel
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 09 2007
Location: United States
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Points: 13481
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Posted: November 15 2011 at 10:37 |
 JD wrote:
In a word, sorry, NO. But that's not to say thee has been some good output. But better? NO.
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Well said. There are good bands who have put some great music out there, but better that the early days bands? I don't think so. That is not to say the original bands (I think Pink Floyd and Jethro Tull should be added to this list) are beyond anybody, or that they're untouchable, but I have not heard anything "better" up to this day.
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frippism
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 27 2010
Location: Tel Aviv
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Points: 4160
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Posted: November 15 2011 at 10:57 |
Triceratopsoil wrote:
I thought the big 4 were Magma, Henry Cow, Univers Zero and Art Zoyd
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YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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There be dragons
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams
Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
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Points: 14550
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Posted: November 15 2011 at 10:59 |
Manuel wrote:
JD wrote:
In a word, sorry, NO. But that's not to say thee has been some good output. But better? NO.
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Well said. There are good bands who have put some great music out there, but better that the early days bands? I don't think so. That is not to say the original bands (I think Pink Floyd and Jethro Tull should be added to this list) are beyond anybody, or that they're untouchable, but I have not heard anything "better" up to this day. |
I haven't realized that the thread was about "those big four"...big for sure, but prog was not made only of them. Three symphonic bands and one eclectic...
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams
Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
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Points: 14550
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Posted: November 15 2011 at 11:00 |
frippism wrote:
Triceratopsoil wrote:
I thought the big 4 were Magma, Henry Cow, Univers Zero and Art Zoyd
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YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH |
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Redug
Forum Groupie
Joined: November 06 2011
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Points: 67
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Posted: November 16 2011 at 23:37 |
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I think it's likely that those are the groups that have the greatest appeal to the largest amount of prog fans. I'd imagine that a lot of us have bands that we like more than a couple of them, but that's on a more individual basis.
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Big Ears
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 08 2005
Location: Hants, England
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Points: 727
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Posted: November 19 2011 at 04:53 |
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In answer to the original post, an emphatic 'no'.
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams
Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
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Points: 14550
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Posted: November 19 2011 at 04:59 |
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Yesterday: LHR to FCO listening to Art Zoyd....this is what I call a trip!
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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frippism
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Joined: July 27 2010
Location: Tel Aviv
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Points: 4160
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Posted: November 19 2011 at 05:43 |
octopus-4 wrote:
Yesterday: LHR to FCO listening to Art Zoyd....this is what I call a trip! |
f**k yeah
I've been having an Art Zoyd week myself.
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There be dragons
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-Radioswim-
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 15 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 331
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Posted: November 21 2011 at 10:34 |
NotAProghead wrote:
The_Jester wrote:
Sorry but Genesis .... It's a completely unique band with music wich none had done and none could imitate. |
Probably the most oftenly attempted imitation of a band ever.  |
FIXED 
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Dust in the Kitchen
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-Radioswim-
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 15 2005
Location: United States
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Points: 331
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Posted: November 21 2011 at 10:47 |
To answer the original post, I think in pure technical prowess they've surpassed the founding fathers of prog by leaps and bounds. When talking about musical ambition and creativity? I think it just depends on who you ask. I think if these generations were switched, prog wouldn't have made it past a late night show in the local pub with a rather minute audience I guess it just depends on who you ask. If I forced at gunpoint I would chose Gazpacho's "Night" over my beloved Foxtrot masterpeice, it just holds more lasting musical value (it flexs my mind more so) You could say, well Foxtrot has been around longer, so you KNOW it will last in it's appeal. However, you could also say that you've already experianced Foxtrot more than Night, so you run the risk of playing it dry of inspiration faster. (I've got a bit off topic, I apologize) I think anything you would consider a classic yourself, with enough time in between each listen, to forget then re-discover, can truely last a lifetime. I'm sorry... what was the question again?  |
Dust in the Kitchen
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firstlensman
Forum Newbie
Joined: September 12 2008
Location: Middletown, NY
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Posted: November 21 2011 at 16:36 |
I would make a TOP TEN list of (in alphabetical order): ELP Genesis Gentle Giant Jethro Tull King Crimson Magma Pink Floyd Rush Yes Frank Zappa If we include Fusion, then it would be a TOP 15 with: Miles Davis Herbie Hancock Mahavishnu Orchestra Return To Forever Weather Report Outstanding Bands to Include are: Area Banco del Mutuo Soccorso Camel Caravan Eloy Focus Gong Harmonium Hatfield & The North Kansas Le Orme PFM Renaissance Santana The Soft Machine Tangerine Dream VdGG These Outstanding bands either: a) didn't have long careers, b) did not
receive the recognition they should have, or c) just could not supplant
one of the Top 15, IMHO.
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First Lensman
"Forever caught in desert lands, one has to learn to disbelieve the sea"
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firstlensman
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Posted: November 21 2011 at 16:44 |
-Radioswim- wrote:
To answer the original post, I think in pure technical prowess they've surpassed the founding fathers of prog by leaps and bounds. |
I'll have to disagree with you on the "leaps and bounds" assertion. Many of the new bands have done songs by the 70s bands and cannot do them justice. None of them match up to Yes, Rush, ELP, Gentle Giant or Magma -- The most proficient bands in the 70s. All of them make us appreciate the 70s bands even more!
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First Lensman
"Forever caught in desert lands, one has to learn to disbelieve the sea"
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-Radioswim-
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 15 2005
Location: United States
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Points: 331
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Posted: November 22 2011 at 21:27 |
"Many of the new bands have done songs by the 70s bands and cannot do them justice"
I think that has a lot to do with the fact that bands rarely ever try and do it justice... rather to re-invent it. Just by design this method is almost automatically going to be seemingly inferior, based on preconception.
I apologize though, I may have exaggerated a bit with the "leaps and bounds"
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Dust in the Kitchen
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MattGuitat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2011
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Points: 339
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Posted: November 22 2011 at 21:44 |
Well, the others were actually successful before Floyd. But I credit Floyd as the first prog band, so I'd have to put them in there
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
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Points: 5154
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Posted: November 23 2011 at 15:28 |
Putting the question relative to just the "big four" is so limiting that it's difficult to even make sense of it, for sure a lot of other outstanding music has been done by other bands.
The question can make more sense if we extend it to the infamous "does modern prog rival 70's prog?" even if it has been discussed to death in numerous threads.
The point of the 70's was not "the big four", what was amazing is that so many bands made truly outstanding and original music, for sure they picked up influences from each other, but many still managed to be truly original and great at the same time, besides the "big four" we had PF, Oldfield, Renaissance, Le Orme, PFM, Banco, Camel, all the Canterbury scene, the fusion scene, Balleto Di Bronzo... soooooo many other bands, I guess I do not need to make a huge list here, everybody knows them, so many bands made truly good music, even if many of them remained little known because of the country they came from or whatever etc. It was an explosion.
Afterwards there has been a lot of good music, no doubt, but the explosion of genuine prog creativity of the 70's is IMHO still unsurpassed.
If some of you know a bit of biology one could make the analogy with the Cambrian Explosion, when suddenly a huge number of highly original species arose, trying new evolutionary paths in many different directions. Never again has a similar diversity have arosen in such a relatively short period of time, but of course more succesful species have evolved since.
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silverpot
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: March 19 2008
Location: Sweden
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Points: 841
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Posted: November 24 2011 at 15:09 |
Gerinski wrote:
Putting the question relative to just the "big four" is so limiting that it's difficult to even make sense of it, for sure a lot of other outstanding music has been done by other bands.
The question can make more sense if we extend it to the infamous "does modern prog rival 70's prog?" even if it has been discussed to death in numerous threads.
The point of the 70's was not "the big four", what was amazing is that so many bands made truly outstanding and original music, for sure they picked up influences from each other, but many still managed to be truly original and great at the same time, besides the "big four" we had PF, Oldfield, Renaissance, Le Orme, PFM, Banco, Camel, all the Canterbury scene, the fusion scene, Balleto Di Bronzo... soooooo many other bands, I guess I do not need to make a huge list here, everybody knows them, so many bands made truly good music, even if many of them remained little known because of the country they came from or whatever etc. It was an explosion.
Afterwards there has been a lot of good music, no doubt, but the explosion of genuine prog creativity of the 70's is IMHO still unsurpassed.
If some of you know a bit of biology one could make the analogy with the Cambrian Explosion, when suddenly a huge number of highly original species arose, trying new evolutionary paths in many different directions. Never again has a similar diversity have arosen in such a relatively short period of time, but of course more succesful species have evolved since.
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I really like that analogy. 
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AtomicCrimsonRush
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Joined: July 02 2008
Location: Australia
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Posted: November 24 2011 at 16:12 |
firstlensman wrote:
I would make a TOP TEN list of (in alphabetical order):
ELP
Genesis
Gentle Giant
Jethro Tull
King Crimson
Magma
Pink Floyd
Rush
Yes
Frank Zappa
If we include Fusion, then it would be a TOP 15 with:
Miles Davis
Herbie Hancock
Mahavishnu Orchestra
Return To Forever
Weather Report
Outstanding Bands to Include are:
Area
Banco del Mutuo Soccorso
Camel
Caravan
Eloy
Focus
Gong
Harmonium
Hatfield & The North
Kansas
Le Orme
PFM
Renaissance
Santana
The Soft Machine
Tangerine Dream
VdGG
These Outstanding bands either: a) didn't have long careers, b) did not
receive the recognition they should have, or c) just could not supplant
one of the Top 15, IMHO.
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Thats a nice list!
And although I could never agree with all of these bands there are certainly enough there to demonstrate the diversity in styles and their importance to prog.
The big 4 for the 70s prog explosion are most likely as far as their impact on prog:
- King Crimson
- Yes
- Pink Floyd
- Genesis
You can add after this 5. ELP 6. VDGG 7. Jethro Tull 8. Rush 9. Camel 10. ?
The last space I add a ? because it could be anything from Caravan, Hawkwind, Atomic Rooster, Uriah Heep, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, or even Frank Zappa or Gentle Giant. Each had an impact on prog music in general.
It is always going to be a matter of contention becasue each of us love our specific bands. I see many here are saying that modern prog is better than 70s prog, and that may be but I seriously doubt any of the modern prog bands would exist without the likes of the above mentioned bands.
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Alitare
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
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Points: 3595
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Posted: November 24 2011 at 16:33 |
I don't understand why people resort to the 'if this band hadn't existed, all these other groups never would have existed, therefore making these said groups somehow magical' sentiment.
If it hadn't been for the guy that invented the first instrument, none of these bands would've existed.
If the damn sun hadn't been a part of this galactic area, Earth never would've been habitable by human life, therefore erasing music from the face of the planet. Does this make the sun somehow more musically 'entitled' than anything else? I'd say the ability to inhabit earth is crucial to the progression of music, hmm?
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