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JLocke 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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 Posted: October 13 2010 at 13:57 |
Well, Robert has clarified to me via PM what he truly meant in his posts in here, and it makes more sense to me seeing it rephrased in that way, so I no longer feel the way I did earlier. I think we were both rather tired at that point. Apparently, lack of sleep makes Robert too vague and me too grouchy. 
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: October 13 2010 at 14:04 |
 Slartibartfast wrote:
Henry Plainview wrote:
This discussion has a serious lack of balloons. |
Where do balloons go when they die?
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Holy sh*t, dude! You just reminded me of a time when I was very little, and I lost two balloons that I was very fond of. I couldn't have been more than three or four years old. Anyway, I was very upset about losing them (at three, material things were my absolute everything), so my father told me that perhaps God found my balloons up there in the sky, and would hold them for me until I . . . . y'know . . . 'died and went to heaven'.
Damn! I've almost broken my own rule twice, now! See, your ballon talk is nothing but trouble. 
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18063
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Posted: October 13 2010 at 14:06 |
WalterDigsTunes wrote:
I'd sooner die than have to plow through that senseless... wall of!! text... |
It's your life, and no one is asking you to dig deeper than you can or want to.
Good luck ...
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18063
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Posted: October 13 2010 at 14:10 |
JLocke wrote:
*sigh*
I guess I'm just soulless, then.  |
Better be "soul-less" than be lost in the semantics and some of the comments in this thread!
There are people that mean well, and there are people that don't care, and you have to only have one thing inside you ... know that difference!
The rest is easy!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32552
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Posted: October 13 2010 at 14:11 |
JLocke wrote:
Well, Robert has clarified to me via PM what he truly meant in his posts in here, and it makes more sense to me seeing it rephrased in that way, so I no longer feel the way I did earlier. I think we were both rather tired at that point. Apparently, lack of sleep makes Robert too vague and me too grouchy. |
Lack of sleep plus beer probably. 
Yes, to all concerned parties here, Micah and I worked this out via PM, so you nosy people can go back to your Jerry Springer and Sally Jessy Raphael. 
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: October 13 2010 at 14:38 |
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"Hey ugly folks, go take some cyanide and die...die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die. A rennenen a rennenen..."
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Paravion
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 01 2010
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 470
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Posted: October 13 2010 at 15:07 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
As to my own opinion about death: Lights out. It sucks, but it also seems that it can't be avoided.
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That's approaching the essential issue. Death is certain.
Death is a much favoured subject in my family and is untabooised to the extend that it's as normal as talking about the weather.
I don't fear death - I don't know what it is. And awareness of the fact that you don't live forever is essential in order to get the most out of life.
I love cemeteries. Not in any odd or perverted sense - it's just that there are so many stories. I love walking by the gravestones and reading the names and dates and imagine who those people were. I know how old they got - who died first, the man or the wife - and all sorts of oddities and peculiarities that you can get out of the sparse data available. There are some very beautiful cemeteries in and around Copenhagen. In the country side, you can even get an impression of the whole community. Great places of thoughtfulness and peace.
Edited by Paravion - October 13 2010 at 15:12
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
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Posted: October 13 2010 at 15:49 |
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I'm even a bit suspicious of grief. It would seem that at least some of the time, grief is an expression of guilt. The problem isn't that the person died- everyone dies. The problem is that the griever did not do/say things they "were going to" or "should have". If the person lived a good life and you did right by them, their death is not really a tragedy.
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Paravion
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 01 2010
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 470
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Posted: October 13 2010 at 16:00 |
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^I somehow agree. But you can't impose that logic on the grievers. At least, I've not been suspicious to my own grief.
Edited by Paravion - October 13 2010 at 16:01
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
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Posted: October 13 2010 at 16:04 |
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Also, I've always felt that grief from theists betrays my suspicion that many theists do not really believe what they say they do. Why are you grieving people going to heaven?
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32552
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Posted: October 13 2010 at 16:22 |
Textbook wrote:
Also, I've always felt that grief from theists betrays my suspicion that many theists do not really believe what they say they do. Why are you grieving people going to heaven? |
Right, because theist = belief in the afterlife (and specifically "Heaven). 
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Paravion
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 01 2010
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 470
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Posted: October 13 2010 at 16:27 |
Epignosis wrote:
Textbook wrote:
Also, I've always felt that grief from theists betrays my suspicion that many theists do not really believe what they say they do. Why are you grieving people going to heaven? |
Right, because theist = belief in the afterlife (and specifically "Heaven).
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well, isn't it in most cases the case? I can see why someone would consider it hypocritical that theists grief when their loved ones achieve the purpose and goal of their existence by dying and going to heaven. But, really, not to grief is too much to ask of sensitive religious people.
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
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Posted: October 13 2010 at 16:29 |
Why? The person has gone to paradise right? I mean sure you won't see them for a little while and that might make you sad but if you're going to in paradise with them for eternity upon your own death, that really seems insignificant.
Epig: Yes, I actually am aware that not all theism involves an afterlife, I'm just speaking generally.
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Paravion
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 01 2010
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 470
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Posted: October 13 2010 at 16:34 |
Textbook wrote:
Why? The person has gone to paradise right? I mean sure you won't see them for a little while and that might make you sad but if you're going to in paradise with them for eternity upon your own death, that really seems insignificant.
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Religious people presumably have doubts and emotions can't be overruled by logic or beliefs.
Edited by Paravion - October 13 2010 at 16:35
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
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Posted: October 13 2010 at 16:49 |
I think they can, it's just a lot of effort.
As for doubts, I accept that it is human to doubt and I pretty much doubt everything so I'm sure others do too, but if you're a theist, I'm pretty sure you're not really "allowed" to doubt. I mean if a Christian answers the question "Is there a god?" with "Well.. kinda... I hope so... it's possible at least..." a lot of people would say this isn't a Christian, it's an agnostic.
JLocke: I know you said "don't do religion" but I also said "But the afterlife is inextricably linked to this topic" so I hope you don't mind too much.
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Paravion
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 01 2010
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 470
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Posted: October 13 2010 at 17:13 |
textbook wrote:
I think they can, it's just a lot of effort. |
Maybe. I'd think it unusual and even uhealthy.
| As for doubts, I accept that it is human to doubt and I pretty much doubt everything so I'm sure others do too, but if you're a theist, I'm pretty sure you're not really "allowed" to doubt. I mean if a Christian answers the question "Is there a god?" with "Well.. kinda... I hope so... it's possible at least..." a lot of people would say this isn't a Christian, it's an agnostic. |
There are two different levels operating here. Religious dogmas and psychology.The religious dogma says you shouldn't have doubts but psychologically it's an unreasonable demand, and I think it's very unlikely to find religious people without just an ounce of doubt whether God exists, whether they go to their respective heavens or hells or what happens when they die - hence grief is understandable and not nescessarily suspicious.
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
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Posted: October 13 2010 at 17:30 |
The world isn't an emotional process, it's a physical one. However they both need the other because physical prosperity without emotional joy is worthless. You don't want your child merely to survive, but also to be happy. The two priorities need to go hand in hand.
What I observe though is that many people find the practical/physical side of things which requires logic to understand and react to appropriately, just too much damn work and they give a much greater priority to their emotions, for which they need to do no work at all to appreciate. And we end up with all kinds of destructive silliness as a result.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: October 13 2010 at 17:34 |
Textbook wrote:
Also, I've always felt that grief from theists betrays my suspicion that many theists do not really believe what they say they do. Why are you grieving people going to heaven? |
The last thing I was taught about the subject was that people go into the grave until resurrection.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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presdoug
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 24 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 8718
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Posted: October 13 2010 at 17:50 |
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I believe that there is a God, but do not believe in life after death-kind of an odd combination, but so be it
Edited by presdoug - October 13 2010 at 17:51
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: October 13 2010 at 21:47 |
Come on, guys. I leave this thread for a day, and already the rules are being broken? How many theism-related topics are there on the boards already?
Edited by JLocke - October 13 2010 at 21:47
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