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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: November 28 2009 at 07:47

Please Bob.despite the differences, the thread was interesting until a member came and ruined it, you should talk particularly to him, not to the rest of the participants who have acted with coherence.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 28 2009 at 07:50

Nuke

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Posted: November 28 2009 at 08:27

Wow, what's happened? debrew, I hope it was just that you were a bit tipsy from drinking too much on a friday night, because those posts were not at all appropriate. Now, let me try to recover this discussion.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Nuke wrote:

First off, this has nothing to do with political correctness. I simply believe there is a great wide world of music outside of our sheltered little genres and that we ought to explore it. I don't listen to pop, country, jazz, or any of the various genres of latin music because it is the correct thing to do, I listen to those genres because I genuinely enjoy those genres. I can't even imagine only listening to prog, the thought of something so confining is terrifying to me, I couldn't do it! I reiterate that's it's not arrogance, and those examples you gave don't shake me at all. I've never surfed. I seriously wouldn't have a problem if you felt sorry for me. I wouldn't call it arrogance, and actually I would like to go surfing one day. Hell, I feel sorry for everyone who's never been to the moon too, and that includes myself Tongue People who stick to one thing and don't go for new experiences are almost by definition close-minded. You might have been open-minded when you discovered prog, but that doesn't mean you are now. I'm not going to accuse you specifically of being close minded, mind you, I don't know enough about what you like. Also, there's a difference between never having experienced something and choosing not to experience something. The former being sheltered, the latter is being close minded. Close minded isn't always a bad thing. I'm close minded on murder, should I be open to new experiences like killing people? I'm sure limiting myself by not killing people Confused I do insist however that being close minded in regards to music, or any art for that matter, is a bad thing.

I have highlighted some parts of your post and believe me most of them sound arrogant:

Then explain to me how they are arrogant, because they didn't seem that way to me. I keep looking at them over and over again and seeing no trace of arrogance. Two of the highlighted parts I could see if you really stretched it.

1.- Yes it's politicaly correct: If anybody posts anything about any band, or genre, if you say you don't like it,. then you are describesd as close minded, no matter how absurd is the proposition:

You being described by some people as close minded doesn't make their proposition politically correct. I don't actually feel like I have the majority opinion reading through this thread. Besides, why are you throwing associative attacks (a fallacy) against my position as being arrogant or politically correct? If I were arrogant or politically correct, that wouldn't mean that I were wrong.

arcane-beautiful wrote:

About Michael Jackson

yes, i think he is prog. Prog

Jackson also really believed in solo instruments as a major part of music and composition. E.g. in his live shows, he allowed his band to go into funk jams, and he even instructed them to just go with the feeling and to experiment with the music itself.

IF THAT'S NOT WHAT BEING PROG IS ABOUT, THEN THIS GENRE IS AS STEREOTYPED AS ANY OTHER GENRE.

You're free to disagree with jackson being prog. I wouldn't just instantly write off his preposition as absurd though. That would be more arrogant than anything I've said. Arcane didn't really build up much of a case though. I don't see how it's politically incorrect to disagree. I probably disagree with arcane as well.

or:

About the pseudo fact that "we need Prog Rap"

some rather closed-minded opinions coming in here....

you really never know. it's definitely possible. there's a lot of great music around. keep your ears open.

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=14328&KW=Progressive+Rap&PN=2

You do express close minded views here. Reading that thread, it is clear that you don't know much about rap. "All the rap played in the radios is crap and represents 90% of the genre"? "I admit the posibility of good Rap as I admit the posibility of aliens living under the surface of Mars, professional wrestling is for real or that women burn in Salem were in fact witches"? Sure, accuse me of being politically correct, but in that thread you come off as an arrogant and ignorant fool. Perhaps you shouldn't talk about what you don't know, since you clearly don't know rap.

And as this, hundreds of ecxample, if youdon't agree with anything, you are close minded, so you have to be politically correcyt and say everything is OK.

No. That is a ridiculous generalization. Stop playing the victim card and making out those with opposing viewpoints to be unthinking sheep.

2.- You listen those genres because you enjoy them:And what about people who don't enjoy anything besides Pro or Pop or Rap or Salsa...Can't they have a full live and don't need your pitty?

Nah, what kind of life is only listening to one genre? Sure, they can get what they think is a full life, and they can enjoy it. Ignorance may be bliss, but that sure as hell doesn't mean I'm going to go around promoting it. I'm sorry, but I'm a bit arrogant in that I can't stand for people to stand still in one rut. I will always try to challenge them to try new things. After all, we only live once.

3.- You say people who stick to one thing is close minded: Wouldn't be more accurate o say this people have a defined taste? You are judging them for your standards, learn to accept what others like, your standards are good for you, but not for the rest of the world.

Well, sure, you can call it "defined taste" if you want. You're just toying with words though. A mind that is not open is closed. If you stick to one thing, then by definition you are close minded, because an open mind accepts new things.

4.- You ask if there's a difference betwen having explored somethng and refusing to explore it: I also talked about this , if dsomebody listens POP or Rap or Hip Hop, becayse he/she enjoys it,...Great for them, If somebodyvlistens it because it's cool and popular and refuse to check uncool music, then he/she is a sheep.

Try spellcheck What about if someone listens to uncool and unpopular music and refuses to check cool music? Is he a sheep too?

5.- You say being close minded in music is wrong: I agree, but Inot liking what you klike is not close midness, refusing to explore something COULD be being close minded (Or just that you don't need more music than you already have), but exploring other genres and don't likeng them is a PERSONAL CHOICE.

I agree that thoroughly exploring other genres and not liking them is a personal. It is also impossible for me to conceive of such a thing ever happening. Every genre has merits, and if you actually thoroughly explored a genre with an open mind, there's no way you wouldn't find something in it to like. I guess I wouldn't advocate self-torture just to be more open minded though

Iván

BTW: It's not my case, I like lots of music outside Prog (I won't mention them becauseIdoin't need to justify my taste), but I respect the taste of the people, evenif it's vast or limited.

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: November 28 2009 at 09:09

Nuke wrote:

At least I agree with ou on this.

Let's go back to the issue:

Nuke wrote:

Of course you can't find them, you are not looking for them

Yes, it's politically correct...WHY?

Because anybody can start a thread about a determined genre or band, and you are not allowed to say you don't like it without being called "close minded".

You have to be POLITICALY CORRECT ad say it's good or it0's OK because if not you will receive an avalanche of criticism

So you don't believe the addition of the KING OF POP into a Progressive Rock site is absurd?

it's as absurd as suggesting Madonna.

Please watch your words using the word fool is aggressive to say the least, that's my opinion and until today in 10 or more threads about Rap, nobody has mentioned but a handful of "good Rap" artists outside the millions of mainstream and gangsta rappers, and when names are mentioned, I took the time to research most of them and only then commenting that I find no difference.

THERE CAN'T BE AN IDENTITY BETWEEN RAP AND PROGRESSIVE ROCK, BECAUSE RAP IS NOT ROCK, AS SIMPLE AS THAT.

No. That is a ridiculous generalization. Stop playing the victim card and making out those with opposing viewpoints to be unthinking sheep.

You need to read all the posts also, I clearly made a difference between those that follow ANY genre because they like it and those who follow it because it's cool, you don't believe me?....Here is the quote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

If somebody listens Rap or Hip Hop because the feel it's the best music and enjoy it......Good for them, if they listen it because they are following the crowd, then I feel sorry for them, because they will never feel the pleasure of listening a song and having goosebumps.

So don't feel sorry for anybody, different things make different people happy.

Iván

Is it clear now?

Now, this is pure arrogance, there's people who don't like music and probably have a richer life than you and me, I know people who live for science, sports or whatever and give a damn for music, but they are absolutely happy.

When you say "Nah, what kind of life is only listening to one genre? " you are being absolutely arrogant, or don't you notice it?

That people can be absolutely open minded, the may not share the love for vast genres as you do, but they maybe have hundreds of different interests you can't dream about.

People who listen Progressive Rock (20 or more sub-genres, with influences of almost every genre),. have to be open minded enough, if you like Genesis, Mahavishnu, Henry Cow, Magma, Symphony X and Mostly Autumn, you are covering at least the major Rock genres, Folk and Jazz.....Isn't that open minded enough for you?

Try spellcheck What about if someone listens to uncool and unpopular music and refuses to check cool music? Is he a sheep too?

I may have troubles writing in a foreign language for me...But don't have troubles thinking.

I'm not talking about people who REFUSE listening something, I'm talking about people who listened various genres and only like one...There's a huge difference.

Maybe it's impossible for you, but it's possible for many, you have to live with that, your choices or your taste are not universal.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 28 2009 at 09:11

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Posted: November 28 2009 at 09:37

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Please Bob.despite the differences, the thread was interesting until a member came and ruined it, you should talk particularly to him, not to the rest of the participants who have acted with coherence.

Iván

Should be clear from my quote who I was talking to Ivan.

Feel free to keep it "interesting", the thread is of course still open for business.

Nuke

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Posted: November 28 2009 at 11:28

Iván, it's been a pleasure, but this is probably my last post in this conversation, because I get back to school tomorrow for a week of utter chaos (two concerts with 3 dress rehearsals each, and final projects for a physics course). If you have a week-long attention span, let it be known that the towel isn't thrown. Now I feel that you miss the point a lot, and if english was your first language I would accuse you of doing it on purpose, interpreting my words a certain way, but you have the benefit of the doubt, since I know how hard it is to learn another language.

Please don't load this discussion down with cop-out answers like "Of course you can't find them, you are not looking for them" I am looking for them, so please just answer me instead of making snarks. I fail to see how the quote "I listen to those genres because I genuinely enjoy those genres," for example, has any trace of arrogance at all. As for the political correctness bit, I know why you think it's politically correct. I answered why I didn't think it was necessarily, and your response was merely to repeat what you said earlier. Fine then, if you want to be that way, explain what political correctness is, and why it makes a lick of difference in this discussion. You're just using this claim of us being politically correct as a means to laying out the victim card. Please stop with that nonsense. Whining about how you "aren't allowed" to dislike anything and how you always get attacked by the arrogant politically correct sheep for being close minded is not progressing the discussion. It doesn't make any impact on the points I've presented, you are sidestepping the points by associating them with political correctness and arrogance. It is a logical fallacy, and using it is the tactic of a man set to win an argument, not a man set to progress a discussion. Like, the next quote you took. I admitted it was a bit arrogant but that's what I genuinely thought. Your response? "Oh, you are being arrogant, so I can dismiss your point" So what? I admitted it was an arrogant thing to say, unlike those random highlighted sentence parts that have no arrogant character whatsoever. I agree that people don't need music to live a rich life. That is besides the point. You can be closed and non-adventurous in one part of life and be perfectly open and adventurous in another part of life. The musical part of your life will be less rich if you stick to one genre. That is what's under dispute.

No apologies for using the word "fool" because I said "in that thread you come off as an arrogant and ignorant fool," not that you are actually one. I could name a few good rap artists, but you wouldn't find them to be good because your mind is already closed to rap music. Admit it, you don't understand rap. You judge it by the standards of progressive rock, and thus you will never find any merit in the genre. And no, I don't believe suggesting the king of pop is absurd. I don't even know very many jackson tunes, so I have to withold my judgment, just like I can't judge any prog band by their mainstream hits. As for madonna, it would be a bit strange to suggest her. She did some progressive stuff such as "like a prayer" and "erotica," but she never really strayed from the mainstream after erotica was trashed by critics. She is very creative and adventurous though within her pop confinement, so I could see her in the "almost prog related" section that will never be on this site Big smile .

My question "What about if someone listens to uncool and unpopular music and refuses to check cool music? Is he a sheep too?" wasn't actually about refusing. I was rewording your question to make a point about the hypocrisy in your standards for being a sheep. Oh, and come on, covering all of the genres in prog is like hearing jazz in elevators. It's not the real thing and you know it.

Edited by Nuke - November 28 2009 at 11:30

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: November 28 2009 at 16:46

Nuke wrote:

Except for the fool issue, it's been a pleasure also.

Of course not if you read it alone, you are entitled to like one, wo or ten genres, but oif you add to that phrase: Nah, what kind of life is only listening to one genre? then its clearly arrogant, you are implying that only people like you who enjoy this genres has a full life and that a uife of liking only one genre is not worth to be lived.....Read your phrases

As for the political correctness bit, I know why you think it's politically correct. I answered why I didn't think it was necessarily, and your response was merely to repeat what you said earlier. Fine then, if you want to be that way, explain what political correctness is, and why it makes a lick of difference in this discussion. You're just using this claim of us being politically correct as a means to laying out the victim card. Please stop with that nonsense. Whining about how you "aren't allowed" to dislike anything and how you always get attacked by the arrogant politically correct sheep for being close minded is not progressing the discussion.

I have not talked about politically correct sheep, I understand that anybbody can like any genre, that's logical, but some people domn't allow you to express a negative point of view, you must accept that everything is nice and perfect, and that's political correctness.

If I want toi say that Rap is not music in my opinion, nobody should call me close minded, just a person who is expressing his valid point of view.

It doesn't make any impact on the points I've presented, you are sidestepping the points by associating them with political correctness and arrogance. It is a logical fallacy, and using it is the tactic of a man set to win an argument, not a man set to progress a discussion.

As much as I can distract the conversation from the central point (remember I'm a lawyer, an expert in talking without saying anything), this is not the case, I just shopwed you how your question about "What Kind of life.." is extremely arrogant.

Like, the next quote you took. I admitted it was a bit arrogant but that's what I genuinely thought. Your response? "Oh, you are being arrogant, so I can dismiss your point" So what? I admitted it was an arrogant thing to say, unlike those random highlighted sentence parts that have no arrogant character whatsoever. I agree that people don't need music to live a rich life. That is besides the point. You can be closed and non-adventurous in one part of life and be perfectly open and adventurous in another part of life. The musical part of your life will be less rich if you stick to one genre. That is what's under dispute.

I don't think the life will be less richer, here I know people that have 2,000 or 3,000 albums, most of them Prog, something I hardly see in average musical listeners that I know.

I don't like Rap, I don't condsider it music (Some form of poetry with rhythm), never hided it, I always said it loud and clear, but this didn't stopped me of listening some rappers as Imortal Technique who were presented as te best thing since slice bread.

You judge it by the standards of progressive rock, and thus you will never find any merit in the genre.

False, seems you drunk with Claude, I clearly said I respect the taste for any genre, in my case I love a lot of music outside Prog, and judge it by it's standards, like Cranberries, Fleetwood Mac (Buckingham and Nicks), Meat Loaf, Jackson Browne, BTO, Mountain, Los Kjarkas, Ruben Blades, The Mamas & The Papas, Bob Dylan, REM, early U2, Guns & Roses, Cat Stevens, Louis Armstrong, Casiopea (Japan), OMD, etc, and judge none by Prog standards...Why should I judge Rap by Prog standards?

And no, I don't believe suggesting the king of pop is absurd. I don't even know very many jackson tunes, so I have to withold my judgment, just like I can't judge any prog band by their mainstream hits. As for madonna, it would be a bit strange to suggest her. She did some progressive stuff such as "like a prayer" and "erotica," but she never really strayed from the mainstream after erotica was trashed by critics. She is very creative and adventurous though within her pop confinement, so I could see her in the "almost prog related" section that will never be on this site Big smile

Oh please!!!!

My question "What about if someone listens to uncool and unpopular music and refuses to check cool music? Is he a sheep too?" wasn't actually about refusing.

To be a sheep, you must follow blindly the herd without any personal will, if you listen Prog just to follow another person, you will be a poser,

A sheep never refuses, only follows, so if a person likes something and refuses to even check anything else, you may call it defined taste or even stubborn, but never a sheep.

I was rewording your question to make a point about the hypocrisy in your standards for being a sheep. Oh, and come on, covering all of the genres in prog is like hearing jazz in elevators. It's not the real thing and you know it.

I'm not an hypocrite, never was and never will be, I say what I think loud and clear.

BTW: Except Indo Raga Prog and most Prog Metal, I have at least a couple albums of every genre here.

Iván