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LanCaiHe 
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Joined: April 20 2007
Location: United States
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Points: 78
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 Posted: July 30 2009 at 11:45 |
I see what you mean! It's almost like you are running around with meat cleavers. LOL ! 
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Jim
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Sliver Lord
Forum Newbie
Joined: February 06 2009
Location: Lumiar, Lisboa
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Points: 11
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Posted: July 31 2009 at 04:35 |
Ok, not all songs you like by a prog band (even in the prog albums) are prog songs, but take the example of Aristillus, from Moonmadness. It has 1 and half minute and it isn't prog, but is it pop? No, it never could be pop.
So, I think those songs you say that are "non-prog" prog songs are at least art rock or prog related.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: July 31 2009 at 05:48 |
in
 LanCaiHe wrote:
Sorry to differ with you, but at least in my hometown in the 70's we did refer to ELP, Genesis, Yes, Gentle Giant, etc. as "Progressive Rock." It might be different where you are from. I've only in the last 5 years or so heard it referred to as Prog. But I do agree with you!  |
Though you have said much that I disagree with in this thread, this single point I do agree with (in part). I have stated many times that the term Progressive Rock came about in the early 70s and was in common usage in England at that time. However, we did shorten it to Prog Rock and just Prog then as well. It was not a synonimous term with Art Rock, which was a broader category and included many "non-Prog" bands such as Roxy Music and Queen. A number of other terms (inc some that have long been forgotten) were used around that time in the Music Press (Melody Maker, NME & Sounds), such as Techno-Flash and Pomp Rock to describe bands like Yes and ELP.
Personnally I have no discontinuity in listenning to Progressive music from the late 60s through to the present day so I am happy to accept that Prog of today is a natural linear development that is traceable back to the founding fathers of the movement, even when that involves pulling modern influences into the genre and thus broadening the horizon to encompass a wider spectrum of music.
LanCaiHe wrote:
My God, I've listened to more Opeth than I ever care to again. I just listened to two more tunes. If anything at all they are Goth Metal. If I had the distasteful task of categorizing their music, that's what heading I would put them under. |
You would be in a class of one if you did that, while some GothI(ic) Metal bands did venture into Progressive Metal territory, the albums that earned them that tag were not Gothic Metal albums ... those bands had moved on from the traditional Gothic Metal sound (The Gathering, Moonspell, Dreams of Sanity etc). Opeth have never been a Gothic Metal band.
LanCaiHe wrote:
I see what you mean! It's almost like you are running around with meat cleavers. LOL ! |
That's the risk you run when criticising any artist,  it is a thin line between criticising a band and criticising fans of that band - and when you make that criticism generic you stand a greater chance of offending a lot more people; make a single observation of a band and then extrapolate that to contain all bands in that genre and you'll invite a negative response from more people. |
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suremang
Forum Newbie
Joined: July 30 2009
Location: Ventura, CA
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Points: 8
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Posted: August 01 2009 at 11:07 |
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Forget about labels. I don't think of "progressive" or "prog" as a label that defines a band or a CD. That's much too broad. To me, progressive is a mindset - a way of looking at the creative process that guides the artist. Many bands can produce works that are progressive, and turn around and do something in the mainstream the very next song. Look at Yes' "Fragile" LP: you have a top 40 song in "Roundabout", alongside Chris Squire's "Fish", which is a totally progressive breakthrough song for bass players. Their cover of "America" is a progressive music classic in that they take a mainstream folk song and cover it in a progressive way.
The best thing about these bands is the audience they bring to progressive music...hundreds of thousands of listeners that would not normally be exposed to "prog" music any other way. Any time a prog band, or even a mildly prog band scores a commercial hit, or does a tour that sells in the tens of thousands of tickets per venue, I cheer.
Greg Sherman
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Greg Sherman
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Nuke
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 25 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 271
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Posted: August 01 2009 at 11:24 |
I suspect labels are only important to people who believe in genre superiority. Personally, I look for good music, and the more genres I look in the more I find. Boo hoo to those who complain about pop songs being on their prog albums. Matte Kudasaiand Heartbeat are 2 of my all time favorite king crimson songs despite them being far from prog. Dean, although I agree that traditional gothic metal isn't prog, however some newer gothic metal does seem to be prog while remaining gothic on the same album. The example I'm thinking of is Decipher by After Forever. I guess the 2 newest epica albums would qualify as well.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Points: 37575
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Posted: August 01 2009 at 11:43 |
Nuke wrote:
Dean, although I agree that traditional gothic metal isn't prog, however some newer gothic metal does seem to be prog while remaining gothic on the same album. The example I'm thinking of is Decipher by After Forever. I guess the 2 newest epica albums would qualify as well. |
Fair point, though I wonder how far both AF and Epica were more Symphonic Metal than Gothic Metal when compared to the plethora of european Female Fronted Gothic Metal bands such as Theatre of Tragedy, Alas, Sirenia, Tristania etc. (or even Within Temptation or Lacuna Coil come to that). I guess I never really thought of either Dutch band as being particularly Gothic Metal.
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What?
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LanCaiHe
Forum Groupie
Joined: April 20 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 78
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Posted: August 01 2009 at 12:04 |
Of course I disagree with you. First, if we dispense with labels then there is absolutely no use for a website such as this. Also, I also disagree with you that the songs Matte Kudasai and Heartbeat are not prog songs. They certainly are, the former being an interesting distortion of an old rock/country/blues lick, especially the way in which it's combined rhythmically with the other parts of the song. 
Nuke wrote:
I suspect labels are only important to people who believe in genre superiority. Personally, I look for good music, and the more genres I look in the more I find. Boo hoo to those who complain about pop songs being on their prog albums. Matte Kudasaiand Heartbeat are 2 of my all time favorite king crimson songs despite them being far from prog.
Dean, although I agree that traditional gothic metal isn't prog, however some newer gothic metal does seem to be prog while remaining gothic on the same album. The example I'm thinking of is Decipher by After Forever. I guess the 2 newest epica albums would qualify as well. |
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Jim
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
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Points: 36987
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Posted: August 01 2009 at 12:28 |
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I like different types of music, but nomenclature is very useful for me -- categorisation helps me to find music that I will like, and labelling generally is important if one wants organisation. Music may be the spice of life, and I like the spices in my spice cabinet to be labelled. Nomenclature is really essential for archival purposes, so I would expect the majority of those who use archives to be interested in labels.
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Lodij van der Graaf
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 21 2009
Location: Jakarta
Status: Offline
Points: 150
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Posted: August 02 2009 at 00:01 |
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Whether prog's prog or isn't... I enjoy it well...
The term "Prog" is came from the outside, eh? The fans named it to the artists, not the artist declared it to the fans... (in early years)
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Grace is a name,
like Chastity,
like Lucifer,
like mine!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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topofsm
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 17 2008
Location: Arizona, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1698
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Posted: August 02 2009 at 01:18 |
I don't only like prog, as many above have said, but a lot of my music that I like just falls under that category. Thus, I look through all music labeled 'progressive' and far more often than not I enjoy it. As for genres, I enjoy arguing about them whether it's prog, non-prog, prog related, prog metal, death metal, metalcore, hardcore, punk, alternative, folk, country, bluegrass, or jazz. Maybe I have no life, but I already knew that.
Also, LanCaiHe, do you normally quote and then post your reply above it? It's very confusing for me to read backwards.
Edited by topofsm - August 02 2009 at 01:20
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11420
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Posted: August 02 2009 at 01:46 |
Tsevir Leirbag wrote:
Sometimes, I think there are prog songs (made by prog bands), that are not prog. Most of the time, I don't like it because it sounds commercial or even really like popular music.
What do you think about it?/What are the "non-prog" prog songs that you like/you dislike? |
Forgive my candour, but this statement seems a tad 'fuzzy' to me i.e. how can a prog song by a prog band be both a prog song and NOT a prog song ? Do you perhaps really mean that the more mainstream oriented material produced by some of your prog faves leaves you cold ? (eg Love Beach, Abacab etc) More importantly perhaps is my nagging suspicion that like many other misguided but well intentioned souls on 'PA' you confuse complexity with substance and/or depth ? e.g. I know many a prog snob who would turn their nose up at any music that has a simple beat and simple harmonic structure. This is plainly facile I am sure you would agree ? Aside from the deaf and possibly lovers of 'ambient', we would readily agree there is globally popular music that is not diminished in the slightest by its embrace by the otherwise credulous masses e.g. Kinks, Stones, Oasis, Dylan, Stevie Wonder, Lou Reed, Cure etc. (substitute your own closet faves) The foregoing are not remotely 'prog' but 'the food of love' would be a rather stodgy diet without such artists.
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tamijo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 06 2009
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 4287
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Posted: August 02 2009 at 01:49 |
Time to reverse this, and find prog songs on non prog albums 
NB.: Keep in mind that POP is not a style, as it only tells you that something is or was ment to be for the masses. In the same way as commercial. POP can not be a style, because what is POP depends on the timeframe in witch it was realeased.
Owner of a Lonely Hart - Just to use this as an example - Is a rock song - what makes it more commercial than other Yes songs is the catcy Vocal's, the Production very in line with the "sounds" of the time, that it has a running time fit for airplay. ect ect.; But it is Rock !
Edited by tamijo - August 02 2009 at 02:02
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Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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Relayer Duos
Forum Newbie
Joined: July 16 2009
Location: Redlands CA
Status: Offline
Points: 24
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Posted: August 02 2009 at 13:40 |
The greatest prog is not defined necesarily by the "progressive" elements. There are many albums (even venturing as far as Dragonforce =O) that have progressive elements that are no good. How many paradigm shifts you have in a song in no complete way define how good, or not, the song is. Take the example Providence off of Red by King Crimson. It is almost constantly evolving in one way or another, new quieter sections or sporadic percussion instruments taking over what once was. If we were going soley by how "progressive" it is it may very well be a great masterpiece, yet in reality it is just very strange.
Prog is defined--defined as good or bad--by how musical it is. The best prog is the kind that incorporates classical, jazz, and older rock/metal influences into their writing--producing a rock effect that actually feels like music. This is where the average band fails to make the leap, they write pop or singer/songwriter or alternative licks and just string two or three into a song. This form of music lacks musicianship in writing and in performance, and is truly the reason we don't like it very much.
Would anybody question the musicality of Horizons (off of Foxtrot)? It isn't particularly "progressive" but it is still a welcome addition to the prog family. The reason? It is still well made music.
I don't think any song that isn't "progressive" is just "pop." Take the new album by the Decemberists, The Hazards of Love. The average song length is under three minutes, which is not long enough to make a real "progressive" song, yet it is getting good reviews. The album is still a prog album due to other elements.
Individual songs don't always mean something alone.
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Nuke
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 25 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 271
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Posted: August 02 2009 at 13:44 |
LanCaiHe wrote:
Of course I disagree with you. First, if we dispense with labels then there is absolutely no use for a website such as this. Also, I also disagree with you that the songs Matte Kudasai and Heartbeat are not prog songs. They certainly are, the former being an interesting distortion of an old rock/country/blues lick, especially the way in which it's combined rhythmically with the other parts of the song.
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Well, on the first point, I was responding to the person above me. What I meant wasn't that labels had no value, but rather that they only take on a particular importance when you believe in genre superiority. If you look at some bands that got rejected from prog archives, ofthen the fans of that band take it very personally as if it were some sort of insult to not be included as prog (just look at the necrophagist argument if you don't believe me). The only reason that necrophagist fans would be offended that necrophagist aren't in PA is that they believe prog to be a superior genre to just plain old tech metal. As to your second point, those songs are pure pop. I mean, if you call them prog because they are interesting distortions of old songs or otherwise forward thinking, I could point you to tons of pop songs that also fit this category, but that we would never call prog. Listen to "like a prayer" by madonna for a great example of a pop song that is progressively written.
Dean wrote:
Fair point, though I wonder how far both AF and Epica were more Symphonic Metal than Gothic Metal when compared to the plethora of european Female Fronted Gothic Metal bands such as Theatre of Tragedy, Alas, Sirenia, Tristania etc. (or even Within Temptation or Lacuna Coil come to that). I guess I never really thought of either Dutch band as being particularly Gothic Metal. |
Well, I certainly wouldn't want to advocate After Forever as being gothic since they've changed so much, but I think their first 2 albums are really quite squarely Gothic metal, their second album decipher being the quintessential example of progressive gothic metal in my opinion. Epica are on the other hand very symphonic so I'm more hesitant to call them gothic metal, but you can hear gothic stylings all over their music, and they seem to be popular in the goth scene.
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LanCaiHe
Forum Groupie
Joined: April 20 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 78
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Posted: August 02 2009 at 14:12 |
Haha, well, we could argue about it forever, but Matte Kudasai is definitely prog, and Madonna's "Like a Prayer" is DEFINITELY NOT Prog. LOL! That's pretty funny!  It may be a well crafted pop tune using all the cliche's and hooks that are needed for a hit at this time in pop music history, but it is not a prog tune nor is it progressively written. It's pretty standard right down to the left pointed bra cup. Hey, anybody up for a little Pilates?
Nuke wrote:
LanCaiHe wrote:
Of course I disagree with you. First, if we dispense with labels then there is absolutely no use for a website such as this. Also, I also disagree with you that the songs Matte Kudasai and Heartbeat are not prog songs. They certainly are, the former being an interesting distortion of an old rock/country/blues lick, especially the way in which it's combined rhythmically with the other parts of the song.
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Well, on the first point, I was responding to the person above me. What I meant wasn't that labels had no value, but rather that they only take on a particular importance when you believe in genre superiority. If you look at some bands that got rejected from prog archives, ofthen the fans of that band take it very personally as if it were some sort of insult to not be included as prog (just look at the necrophagist argument if you don't believe me). The only reason that necrophagist fans would be offended that necrophagist aren't in PA is that they believe prog to be a superior genre to just plain old tech metal. As to your second point, those songs are pure pop. I mean, if you call them prog because they are interesting distortions of old songs or otherwise forward thinking, I could point you to tons of pop songs that also fit this category, but that we would never call prog. Listen to "like a prayer" by madonna for a great example of a pop song that is progressively written.
Dean wrote:
Fair point, though I wonder how far both AF and Epica were more Symphonic Metal than Gothic Metal when compared to the plethora of european Female Fronted Gothic Metal bands such as Theatre of Tragedy, Alas, Sirenia, Tristania etc. (or even Within Temptation or Lacuna Coil come to that). I guess I never really thought of either Dutch band as being particularly Gothic Metal. |
Well, I certainly wouldn't want to advocate After Forever as being gothic since they've changed so much, but I think their first 2 albums are really quite squarely Gothic metal, their second album decipher being the quintessential example of progressive gothic metal in my opinion. Epica are on the other hand very symphonic so I'm more hesitant to call them gothic metal, but you can hear gothic stylings all over their music, and they seem to be popular in the goth scene. |
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Jim
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Nuke
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 25 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 271
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Posted: August 02 2009 at 15:51 |
Lol, I think I already have been arguing forever with you  It's okay though, I actually enjoy arguing with people, especially people who keep it cool like you. Anyways, that madonna song is an 80's song, so it has none of the cliches needed for a today hit. Seriously, listen to it, it is far more progressive than either heartbeat or matte kudasai, I kid you not, especially the second half of the song.
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DASistGrantTeeL
Forum Groupie
Joined: July 30 2009
Location: california
Status: Offline
Points: 55
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Posted: August 02 2009 at 16:13 |
Blacksword wrote:
Ha! I think their best album is 'A Trick of the Tail' |
thats the only good album with colins singing imo because it's more like Selling England By The Pound it's still prog they didnt really seell out bad till 78
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"This dream is all I’ve ever wanted, Cared for, I only hope things haven’t changed when I awake…"
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Real Paradox
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 20 2008
Location: Lisbon
Status: Offline
Points: 174
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Posted: August 02 2009 at 18:19 |
In post-rock (not metal though) you might some of that prog is not prog, cuz although we consider it prog, it isn't self proclaimed prog at all. Think of Dream Theatre maybe, they sometimes have some songs that are hardly prog... i.e. "Another Day", "Hollow Years". Not to mention their lyrics. Petrucci you own guitar-playing, but as man of words... Such hatred for someone you love hearing... 
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What is This?
It is what keeps us going...
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Lodij van der Graaf
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 21 2009
Location: Jakarta
Status: Offline
Points: 150
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Posted: August 03 2009 at 02:05 |
Nuke wrote:
Lol, I think I already have been arguing forever with you It's okay though, I actually enjoy arguing with people, especially people who keep it cool like you. Anyways, that madonna song is an 80's song, so it has none of the cliches needed for a today hit. Seriously, listen to it, it is far more progressive than either heartbeat or matte kudasai, I kid you not, especially the second half of the song. |
 Is it? Wanna check it out! How about Led Zeppelin's "The Crunge"?
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Grace is a name,
like Chastity,
like Lucifer,
like mine!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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LanCaiHe
Forum Groupie
Joined: April 20 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 78
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Posted: August 03 2009 at 06:50 |
haha! You evoked a horrible memory from my past about that Madonna song! I remember when I was in music school there was this girl who was a voice major who wanted to play some pop tunes and make some bucks on the side. She put together a band and I played keys for them. She had an excellent voice, way better than Madonna's of course, and good stage presence as well. I remember that we played Like a Prayer and it was a fun song to play, but it was very similar to a lot of gospel tunes in it's construction. I remember the bass player was all over the place, the man couldn't play an ostinato pattern if you put 60,000 volts of electricity in him! I had to quit the project because of that. Ever since, I've been really hard on bass players! LOL So, I must tell you that I lived and breathed that song in the day. There is no need to go back and revisit it. 
I must say, you will NEVER find a melody like Matte Kudasai in a pop song. It's too....well.......melodic! 
Nuke wrote:
Lol, I think I already have been arguing forever with you It's okay though, I actually enjoy arguing with people, especially people who keep it cool like you. Anyways, that madonna song is an 80's song, so it has none of the cliches needed for a today hit. Seriously, listen to it, it is far more progressive than either heartbeat or matte kudasai, I kid you not, especially the second half of the song.
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Jim
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Prog's not prog.
