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Real Paradox 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 20 2008
Location: Lisbon
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Points: 174
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 Posted: August 03 2009 at 07:12 |
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Well I for instance think that, the label "classic" is employed in terms of being something which is perceived as an era, not really a genre. The era, in my opinion, has much more relevance in terms of categorising this genre than the music itself. The era of those instruments, singing styles, and composition techniques. And since it has survived as the somewhat "academic" pillar of music, it is designated as "erudite" or "classical" or, in other words, "the starting point". What do you think of this?
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What is This?
It is what keeps us going...
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American Khatru
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 28 2009
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 732
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Posted: August 03 2009 at 07:43 |
I have to run to work but I'll say quickly, er, yes and no. The classical era really was long ago, the thing I was talking about with the ancient cultures (not the "ancients" of TfTO  ). The classical music era, if you will, yeah, that term is used for an era. But the term was coined to describe method, ie. there were things at the same time period that did not hold up to the term though they may have been contemporary. The fact that people these days refer to anything of about a 150 year period as classical is not the side of the definition I was referring to. Edit: your "starting point" comment has merit. A term like "classical" has the feel of a start, the earliest emanation, and so has probably subconsciously caused many people to accept it as the start, ignoring human history before. Don't put it past the human animal. Man I wish I didn't have to go to work. And it's going to be a slog today too. But I have my prog (loosely defined) with me to get me through. Lots of stuff, but I'm especially excited about Alusa Fallax, Captain Beyond, Il Balletto di Bronzo, La Torre dell'Alchimista, S.B.B. And I think I'll take Brahms along for the ride, the late clarinet stuff. Yes, I'm one   .
Edited by American Khatru - August 03 2009 at 07:45
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 Why must my spell-checker continually underline the word "prog"?
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: August 03 2009 at 08:16 |
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There is a difference between "classic" meaning 'a golden era' (such as a classic movie or a classic car) and the term "classical" meaning 'in the style of the classic era', whether that resultant style is an accurate represrentation of the classic era or merely a pastiche. The Classical Period of orchestral music was an attempt to ape the music from the classic era of history (without knowing what it actually sounded like), so was a simplification of what went before (Baroque) and without the incresesd complexity of structure that came after and was therefore more accessible and popular (and still is). This draws parallels with Symphonic Prog (which I guees should more accurately should be called Symphonical since it is aping the style without actually being Symphonic in structure or form) in that it is the most accessible and popular of the prog subgenres.
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What?
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
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Points: 7559
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Posted: August 03 2009 at 12:24 |
Classical is a reasonable term to describe a style of music composed between 1750 and 1820 (or thereabouts!), as the elegance in design of the music reflects the geometry of Classical buildings, and other things presented in a formal style known as Classical. I won't go into details to save page space.
Classical is also used generically to describe non-folk acoustic music.
The two uses are distinctly different - and the second is much more recent, and, in the fashions of recent times, is simply a label rather than a descriptor.
Likewise, the original Progressive Rock meant Rock that was inherently progressive - like Progressive Jazz before it. When I say "like", I mean in almost exactly the same way - the arrangements were the progressive thing, and the "style", was more of an approach - like Progressive Jazz.
The original Progressive Rock was a follow-on from a Progressive Music "scene", which comprised bands that played rock music, but were also very influenced by jazz, who incorporated just about everything they could, including Classical and World music into their compositions - and here's a key word; Compositions, as opposed to simple songs.
This was significantly blurred in the original Progressive music scene, because bands would frequently only include one or two truly progressive pieces on an album, and fill it out with songs, as it was still too risky to deviate too far from publicly acceptable formulae.
The "classic" example is Pink Floyd, who brought Progressive/Underground music into the mainstream.
A few bands stood out - The Nice, for example - and Classically educated composers such as Pierre Henry crossed over into a more rock/pop style with their compositions (e.g. Messe Pour Le Temps Present).
Similarly to Classical, therefore, in more recent times, Progressive Rock seems simply a label for a wider, more generic form of Rock to younger generations, while those who remember the original bands take a slightly more sceptical skance, because it is immediately apparent that most Modern Prog is not the same thing as the Prog they remember - and the thing that is missing is the direct link to the jazz scene, because Jazz is no longer as prominent as it was in the late 1960s, and rock musicians generally simply do not play or understand it.
A couple of good exceptions are John Zorn and Ron Jarzombek - there are and will always be exceptions that prove rules.
The other key takeaway here is that both Classical and Progressive in their truest sense refer to the music's formal structuring, and not the style.
As labels, though, they both refer to styles, which are much harder to pin down and therefore almost useless as descriptors.
Edited by Certif1ed - August 03 2009 at 12:28
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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MaxerJ
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 03 2009
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 127
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Posted: August 07 2009 at 21:24 |
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"Progressive rock was what happened in the early 70's when certain
brilliant instrumentalists got fed up with playing three-and-a-half
minute long songs about teenage love. Unfortunately, this led them
to start playing ten-and-a-half minute long songs about nothing in
particular."
-- Geoff Nicholson, `Big Noises: Rock Guitar in the 1990s', Quadrant
Books, 1991.
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Godspeed, You Bolero Enthusiasts
 'Prog is all about leaving home...' - Moshkito
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progrules
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 14 2007
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 958
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Posted: August 08 2009 at 06:16 |
 Mr ProgFreak wrote:
complexity
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= the key word any definition of "prog" should have. Besides that a definition is hard  !
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A day without prog is a wasted day
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
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Points: 46833
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Posted: August 08 2009 at 08:20 |
progrules wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
complexity
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= the key word any definition of "prog" should have. Besides that a definition is hard ! |
 art+rock music= prog complexity is one of the possible results of that.... pop can be, and sometimes is complex and virtuosic. What then is the difference.... the artistic intent... that is what prog is about.
Edited by micky - August 08 2009 at 08:22
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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micky
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
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Points: 46833
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Posted: August 08 2009 at 09:07 |
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see.. what f**ks prog up... are those who equate complexity with prog. Thus we get get complex music, some would argue mainly in the realm of metal, that doesn't have a shred of 'prog' in it... and conversely artistic.. PROGRESSIVE bands... which those who are strict complexity freaks can't fathom being prog.. because they are not.. and don't feel the need to be complex.
talk about having things ass-backwards...
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
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Points: 65248
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Posted: August 08 2009 at 16:15 |
MaxerJ wrote:
"Progressive rock was what happened in the early 70's when certain
brilliant instrumentalists got fed up with playing three-and-a-half
minute long songs about teenage love. Unfortunately, this led them
to start playing ten-and-a-half minute long songs about nothing in
particular."
-- Geoff Nicholson, `Big Noises: Rock Guitar in the 1990s', Quadrant
Books, 1991.
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 good
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Anirml
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2008
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 377
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Posted: August 08 2009 at 16:58 |
progrules wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
complexity
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= the key word any definition of "prog" should have. Besides that a definition is hard ! |
I think it's wrong to say that Complexity is the main thing in prog. Prog Breaks the "rules" of most popular music, and is often very Creative. Complexity is just ONE way to break the "rules".
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inrainbows
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 20 2008
Location: on a rainbow
Status: Offline
Points: 489
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Posted: August 08 2009 at 17:11 |
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^^^
I agree, prog is a sum of many things but nothing fits alone, you need two or three words at least to define prog, and "breaks the rules" is a good start
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manofmystery
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 26 2008
Location: PA, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4335
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Posted: August 08 2009 at 18:56 |
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 Time always wins.
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MaxerJ
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 03 2009
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 127
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Posted: August 09 2009 at 03:26 |
Atavachron wrote:
MaxerJ wrote:
"Progressive rock was what happened in the early 70's when certain
brilliant instrumentalists got fed up with playing three-and-a-half
minute long songs about teenage love. Unfortunately, this led them
to start playing ten-and-a-half minute long songs about nothing in
particular."
-- Geoff Nicholson, `Big Noises: Rock Guitar in the 1990s', Quadrant
Books, 1991.
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good
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I just noticed that the book is called Rock guitar in the 1990's. He's writing in 1991... ? It must have been a good year.
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Godspeed, You Bolero Enthusiasts
'Prog is all about leaving home...' - Moshkito
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