For my Libertarian friends

More government doesn't work, less government doesn't work. It's not that government doesn't work, it's that systems don't work. Not perfectly at least. Never have, never will.

Finnforest wrote: I actually thought that was a pretty good, if sometimes frank, exchange of views.  I know some people in forums think this stuff is worthless.  They can go read another thread about Transatlantic if they wish, I think these kinds of threads are interesting.  I learn stuff.  And I appreciate the convictions of people who are willing to passionately debate, whether or not I agree doesn't matter.  I enjoy seeing people why they feel as they do, something I'm not particularly good at.  Sometimes it gets a bit personal, but that's the price of having a forum that is interesting verses one that is over-moderated and sanitized to the safe and the pc.  More power to the T and the EQ

Well of course I find it interesting. This is one of the few threads I go on anymore, and maybe the one I actually contribute to the most
And I was more or less being silly. Now I look like some a****le, not only for being unfunny but now Im being PC.
I guess you've not seen my usual posts on the rest of the site
EDIT: my b...guess I needed to make it more obvious. But really, Ive never once been accused, or anything close to it, of being PC on the internet!


Edited by JJLehto - July 25 2010 at 19:59

And I still can't believe no one noticed (or cared?) about my concession that the welfare state/system needs to be reformed and  I suggested by limiting it.
I've never said that, ever.
Even though I've thought it for a few years, I guess I was still too stuck in what I always believed in. Guess it took 50 some pages for me to finally type the words.
Then again communism is always intriguing


Edited by JJLehto - July 25 2010 at 20:04

Yeah, probably but I will be the first to admit mine will not.
First, because I dont think ANYTHING could lead to utopia.
And of course I doubt anyone could agree on what a utopia even is.

I do think my system, social democracy, is the BEST out there but its not perfect and wont lead to utopia.
EDIT: Also terms are silly anyway. If one thinks about it, "true" communism is almost like anarchy. At least as I understand it. Marx was a pretty bad writer....


Edited by JJLehto - July 25 2010 at 20:09

Equality 7-2521 wrote: jammun wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: jammun wrote: Here ya go.  A "rugged individualist", who wants government out of our lives, but who nonetheless has not turned down the $273,000 the government has paid him in crop subsidies over the years.    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/dannywestneat/2012441890_danny25.html     There you have it, a journalist for the Seattle Times writes an opinion piece and capitalism is debunked. Well I guess I'll have to find some other economic theory to espouse now. Man I really liked capitalism too. So you don't find anything ironic, not to mention vile and hypocritical, about a guy who says "We've got to get rid of this 'protecting the weak,' " Didier said. "If we keep the weak alive all the time, it eats up the strong.", accepting a quarter-million dollars in government (tax-payer funded) subsidies?  Apparently you know as little about capitalism as I do. Yes, but he tries to extend that to a critique of capitalism in general, of which it says nothing about.

Okay, I'm with you there.  Just sayin' that here in WA, and no doubt all over the country, we have this kind of crap happening.  Which is why we are where we are. 

I don't think you need to worry about the guys in this thread.  I have the feeling Teo and Pat are more than capable of defending their turf, and as Pat said, if someone crosses a line, we're adults and we can let the other person know. 

Now, about that welfare reform stuff.....

While we're still on that note...I got Rob to admit that he enjoyed it and respected me, and Llama said soemthing along the same lines. How I managed that is beyond me, but yeah its been cool.

Finnforest wrote: I don't think you need to worry about the guys in this thread.  I have the feeling Teo and Pat are more than capable of defending their turf, and as Pat said, if someone crosses a line, we're adults and we can let the other person know.  Now, about that welfare reform stuff.....

nah Im serious. As a former socialist (which at the time I would've never admitted) and current social democrat/very liberal guy.... I would have NEVER dared to even type words like limit welfare.
In fact I'd usually say the opposite, we needed more!

So even though I've known for a few years things are screwed as they are, I could never bring myself to say it.
But yes, I wanna learn more about this idea of "micro loaning"
It has worked very well in poorer countries. And I was thinking, if it could implemented (along with limited  welfare) we could, well limit welfare and take it out of government hands. Hell itd be helping the poor AND you could profit and hopefully build up local/small business! 

I am an oddball, I thought college made you more liberal! I've moderated over the 4 years...


Edited by JJLehto - July 25 2010 at 20:28

Parts of your story sound similar to me JJ, I used to believe in socialism, used to be card carrying Green Party guy.  But over time my experiences and my knowledge of the lives of friends and family have convinced me excessive social programs are not the way forward.  I'm not going to go much beyond the surface, I don't have time to dive in like you guys.  I got music stuff to do here!

Finnforest wrote: Parts of your story sound similar to me JJ, I used to believe in socialism, used to be card carrying Green Party guy.  But over time my experiences and my knowledge of the lives of friends and family have convinced me excessive social programs are not the way forward.  I'm not going to go much beyond the surface, I don't have time to dive in like you guys.  I got music stuff to do here!

Well no one will put me on the PMT!

Yeah, besides being young and idealist I guess starting that far left I could only go to the center or go communist!
It actually kind of goes with what you said...the experience of college, especially seeing different ideologies and viewpoints, made me think. I have moderated quite a bit. I am just now saying what I highlighted.
Maybe another 4 years from now I'll be like llama
But I doubt it


Edited by JJLehto - July 25 2010 at 20:42

I think this has been a very productive discussion. I've learned a lot about my fellow forum members and gained respect for many of them. Plus I feel like I made JJ think, so that is nice.