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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2017 at 17:26
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

I suppose it could be made clearer by saying black lives matter too, but should they really have to? If people are racist enough (or dense enough) to not get what it means, or be that offended at the thought: black lives matter...why cater to em? Hope is probably lost on them anyway

The fact that it offends people only speaks to the fact that it is a necessary statement to make.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2017 at 18:56
I've been annoyed a number of times by apologists for White Nationalists linking White culture with Confederate statues. I'm White. They're not part of my culture. If Conservatives object to celebrating diversity and prefer celebrating unity, then not celebrating Confederate icons should be priority one.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2017 at 01:00
Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

I suppose it could be made clearer by saying black lives matter too, but should they really have to? If people are racist enough (or dense enough) to not get what it means, or be that offended at the thought: black lives matter...why cater to em? Hope is probably lost on them anyway

The fact that it offends people only speaks to the fact that it is a necessary statement to make.

Pretty much

Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

I've been annoyed a number of times by apologists for White Nationalists linking White culture with Confederate statues. I'm White. They're not part of my culture. If Conservatives object to celebrating diversity and prefer celebrating unity, then not celebrating Confederate icons should be priority one.
Ha yeah....reminds me of how those who claim "Its just my heritage!! I just want to celebrate my state's history is all!!" are likely to be the most gung ho America is never wrong maximum patriotism types...but want to celebrate a 4 year part of their state's history where they tried to leave the U.S. which ya know, could be considered treason. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2017 at 01:04
Speaking of slogans, 'You will not replace us' is among the darker ones in recent memory.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2017 at 01:27
So taking a break from this rather depressing and angering stuff, (I am sure we will have plenty of race based news to discuss in the future) there is a new chart out from Saez & Piketty. It's the most complete work on inequality yet and it kinda smashes conservative (or neo liberal) claims. 

This is average annual wage growth across all income earners for 34 years. This takes into account taxes, employer benefits and gov payments. (Many of the criticisms from the right). 
We see: The middle class is not getting smaller because more are moving up out of it. The super wealthy really are hoarding a large share of growth. Inequality isn't "rich vs poor" but the very rich vs all else. The upper middle class is being left behind as well. (Perhaps the progressives really should took a page out of Corbyn's book and not be afraid to take their message to the upper middle class suburbs) 
Even at the 80 and 90th percentiles avg yearly income growth was not even 2% and seems half the nation didn't even manage 1%




And for good measure, this is the same data 1946-1980. Night and day difference. 


Hmmmmm, high tax, high income, big gov and strong union days seem to provide broad based prosperity, the low tax, minimal regulations, smash gov and weaken labor days since Reagan....not so much. Shocking I know. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2017 at 23:28
Seems econ has killed the thread. THIS is why America keeps electing terrible people Tongue

Trump says he will shut down the government if his wall isn't funded. 
Soooooo in 1 year we've gone from "Mexico will pay for it" to "If we dont pay for it I'll shut down the government" 

Speaking of, at his latest rally he's mentioned he's thinking of pardoning Joe Arpaio. Not only an assault on law and order (guess they dont care so much when its their guy) but yet another nod to racism. 


Edited by JJLehto - August 23 2017 at 23:33
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2017 at 04:02
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

So taking a break from this rather depressing and angering stuff, (I am sure we will have plenty of race based news to discuss in the future) there is a new chart out from Saez & Piketty. It's the most complete work on inequality yet and it kinda smashes conservative (or neo liberal) claims. 

This is average annual wage growth across all income earners for 34 years. This takes into account taxes, employer benefits and gov payments. (Many of the criticisms from the right). 
We see: The middle class is not getting smaller because more are moving up out of it. The super wealthy really are hoarding a large share of growth. Inequality isn't "rich vs poor" but the very rich vs all else. The upper middle class is being left behind as well. (Perhaps the progressives really should took a page out of Corbyn's book and not be afraid to take their message to the upper middle class suburbs) 
Even at the 80 and 90th percentiles avg yearly income growth was not even 2% and seems half the nation didn't even manage 1%
And for good measure, this is the same data 1946-1980. Night and day difference. 

Hmmmmm, high tax, high income, big gov and strong union days seem to provide broad based prosperity, the low tax, minimal regulations, smash gov and weaken labor days since Reagan....not so much. Shocking I know. 
Now, who said there was strength in numbers? I guess that doesn't apply to this scenario! LOL
 
Thanks JJ. This is really good stuff. I just wish that Trump's supporters understood this.


Edited by SteveG - August 24 2017 at 04:03
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 25 2017 at 00:05
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

So taking a break from this rather depressing and angering stuff, (I am sure we will have plenty of race based news to discuss in the future) there is a new chart out from Saez & Piketty. It's the most complete work on inequality yet and it kinda smashes conservative (or neo liberal) claims. 

This is average annual wage growth across all income earners for 34 years. This takes into account taxes, employer benefits and gov payments. (Many of the criticisms from the right). 
We see: The middle class is not getting smaller because more are moving up out of it. The super wealthy really are hoarding a large share of growth. Inequality isn't "rich vs poor" but the very rich vs all else. The upper middle class is being left behind as well. (Perhaps the progressives really should took a page out of Corbyn's book and not be afraid to take their message to the upper middle class suburbs) 
Even at the 80 and 90th percentiles avg yearly income growth was not even 2% and seems half the nation didn't even manage 1%
And for good measure, this is the same data 1946-1980. Night and day difference. 

Hmmmmm, high tax, high income, big gov and strong union days seem to provide broad based prosperity, the low tax, minimal regulations, smash gov and weaken labor days since Reagan....not so much. Shocking I know. 
Now, who said there was strength in numbers? I guess that doesn't apply to this scenario! LOL
 
Thanks JJ. This is really good stuff. I just wish that Trump's supporters understood this.
Well, no need to beat the (very) dead horse but as we've long discussed, they don't really have the best grip on reality. 
Saw just a bit ago some dirt poor town in Tennessee started finally seeing recovery, so naturally it's hail Trump, just 4 months in and somehow the magic is trickling down, businesses opening up!!! Its a Trump miracle. 
Ooooooooooooooor the recovery was finally getting strong in 2016 and ya know, has carried over. I'd ask, you don't find it odd the moment Trump takes over things start improving? Like...before he's gotten much done? You dont think at all maybe that was already ongoing before he was elected and is continuing but that's too much thought for many of these people. 
Not being mean, just an observable fact, lots of em really don't seem to put much thought into these things, so even when they do get things are not going well, they believe the guy who goes on about NAFTA and TPP and bringin back coal jobs (which btw there's no damn war on coal, just look at coal jobs over time...been on the decline since the 80s how slow are these people in WV (and parts of PA, OH, KY)??? Does it take em years to realize anything happens ever?) over the candidate who while not ideal would've actually done something. But they put their well being in the hands of the selfish billionaire, who's appointed selfish billionaires all over, and who's trade team is coming up with a new NAFTA that looks alot like TPP. Who ever would've seen it coming?! Oh, the 48% who voted for Clinton, right. 

As for the charts themselves, yeah this is nutty stuff. The Dems should take that bottom pic, and slap it all across the US. And note how much better a large part of the US is doing post tax. Goes to show how dependent 50 (maybe 70%) of the nation really is on the government. Without tax refunds and various payments (which the GOP would love to get rid of) large swaths of the populace would be even worse off. Again, how the Dems aren't already running with this is beyond me. 


Edited by JJLehto - August 25 2017 at 00:11
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 25 2017 at 00:26
Article is a few months old but I stumbled upon it earlier today and found it very interesting
Wages are rising on California farms, and American's still aren't taking those jobs. 
Soooooo, seems that no, those damn Mexicans aren't jumping the border to steal our jobs, we really just don't want them. 
The article mentions one person who's now offering $14/hr wages (and making offers of up to $16/hr) and provides benefits...as in 401k's, health insurance, paid time off. This is for farm labor! But, even poor people and drug addicts weren't willing. Well...good thing we have a tough leader who wants to send all these lazy job stealing, welfare sucking Mexicans away! Make room for all those work starved Americans! Dead
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 25 2017 at 15:27
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

And note how much better a large part of the US is doing post tax. Goes to show how dependent 50 (maybe 70%) of the nation really is on the government.
 
Welcome to the modern Capitalism man.
The overwhelming amount of information on a daily basis restrains people from rewinding the news record archives to refresh their memories...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 25 2017 at 20:14
Originally posted by Tillerman88 Tillerman88 wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

And note how much better a large part of the US is doing post tax. Goes to show how dependent 50 (maybe 70%) of the nation really is on the government.
 
Welcome to the modern Capitalism man.
Modern being the key. Worked pretty darn well for 30 years there but wasnt laissez-faire enough. 
Tis sad because don't realize it and keep voting in leaders that undermine their well being. 

Funny thing: I read an article a while ago quoting a former Pat Buchanan aide as saying the middle class is basically an "affluent proletariat" "dependent on the government" (coming from a rightist!) and he recommended Pat drop all the free markets Adam Smith trade win win win academic stuff and just speak directly to the people how they are losing jobs and feel threatened by social liberalism and immigrants, as well as conservatives who wanna take their SocSec and medicaid.  Was dismissed then, but seems he may have been 20 years too early...

I'm blanking on the guys name but he started writing about flat out white supremacy under a pen name. 
Speaking of: 
Trump has pardoned Joe Arpaio. Guess "law and order" and being "tough on criminals" only matters when its non white people!

Also Sebastian Gorka is out! Another racist gone! 
He claims "ascending forces" in the WH are not MAGA enough. 
I really wonder if this is the beginning of the end for Trump. As his people keep getting pushed put and the GOP keeps giving up on him, I hope this is the slow screw turning and draining of the swamp he created. So by 2020 he can be primaried and have not enough support. Not that Jeff Flake or John Kasich or these others are good, but still. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 26 2017 at 07:51
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

The upper middle class is being left behind as well. (Perhaps the progressives really should took a page out of Corbyn's book and not be afraid to take their message to the upper middle class suburbs) 


no need my friend... as previously noted several times in fact with the numbers to show it.  8 of the 10 more affluent regions in this country..  and that was being simple... that extended well past 10.. like almost all b of the top 15-20... all voted Democratic.. and most were not even close 40-70 point landslides. That corresponded... not surprisingly to the best educated regions.

Which brings us back to the point we do disagree on.. which of course I think I'm right on.  Pushing an economic message is preaching to the already converted... yet missing the voters they need to reach that have proven... TIME AND TIME AGAIN haha.. to not vote in their economic self interests.. but whose votes are driven by hot button social issues.

The key to crushing the bad guys in 2018 and 2020.. is not to make their eyes rolll into their heads with economic minutia or egg-headed policy. It is to hit the social issues hard and without compromise.

That is the key to success for the Democratic Party.. they've already locked up the (non Corporate) well off... it is the battle for the blue collar grunts that matters. They don't even have to win a majority.. Obama sure didn't.. they just need to not get shellacked like Hillary was.  The urban/surbaban higher income/higher educated 'coastal-elite' vote will take the difference. 


Anyhow...   after a nice Congressional break where all we could do, all there was to talk about, was having fun and enjoying the spectacle of Trump being Trump.. the real fun begins.  Watching the disintegration of the Republican Party as it tears itself apart come September and all they have to pass.. and want to try to pass.  Oh good times are coming for policy/political junkies..
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 26 2017 at 08:08
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Article is a few months old but I stumbled upon it earlier today and found it very interesting
Wages are rising on California farms, and American's still aren't taking those jobs. 
Soooooo, seems that no, those damn Mexicans aren't jumping the border to steal our jobs, we really just don't want them. 


hahahha...   dude have you ever worked in a slaughterhouse before Brian....   talk about a nasty job. LOL  And who does that work...  it it isn't Steve or Jeff and not for 15 an hour.. not for 30 an hour.

It goes back again to the discussion we have some time back about blue collar trade work..... they are beggging honky to try to get him to be Joe the Plumber...  Eric the AC guy.. or Mick the Master Electrican.

they ainn't there...  that whole thing about geoing to college.. doing clean work.. sitting their fat asses behind desks and avoiding real work hahah.  IN lieu of honky taking the jobs.. and especially since in 20 odd years half to 60% of the work force (including me will be dead or hanging out at an Italian cafe, wearing a beret chain smoking with chugging coffee and ogling women) who are taking those jobs.

It is already here..  in my shop.. I can count honky on one hand.. the rest....   yes.. them. People whose moral compass is based on hard work... not college generated paper pushing easy work. hah.... 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 26 2017 at 23:31
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:


It is important to note that while some antifa members/groups are liberal, many are not, they are often socialists of various types, from democratic socialists to anarchists to Maoists. You can't really use liberal metrics to explain their actions because they are actively against them.

That's for sure. The "liberal metrics" they are against are things like: peace? non violence? Understanding if you take to destruction or are willing to quickly jump to injuring, you may be not much better than the fascists? 
And while what you say is true, talk about details and stuff many Americans will have no time for. In the end their actions will lead many people to think "ugh crazy liberals" and the causes are harmed. I'm sure you'll say the causes I deem liberal are not what antifa wants so they dont care, and they may not care if Repubs keep winning because the Dems "are no better" but that's where agree to disagree shall come in.

I just remembered I'd posted about this days ago. Basically, leftists engaging in antifa action are looking at it in a pragmatic way: to them, it is about power. To allow white supremacists to organize openly with no counter-protest is to send a message to ever unorganized racist who hears about it that their feelings are not just shared, but that they are acceptable and should be acted on. Their rallies are intentional acts of intimidation towards PoC, and antifa members often act as defense for other protestors (as seen in Charlottesville, where they protected clergymen), and take potential direct action if it becomes violent. In a very direct way this is a form of protection you will rarely see from those who have the legal authority to use violence, in fact Deandre Harris was beaten by white supremacists right outside the Charlottesville police department. After the events in Charlottesville and the massive counterprotest in Boston, tons of rallies across the country were cancelled. That in the end was the intended effect. I agree that it does not endure itself to those who feel it is violent and non-liberal, but for leftists who engage in it it is a practical way to protect minorities who are endangered by the very presence of those who call themselves the alt-right/white nationalists/white supremacists/Klan members/neo-nazis/etc.
And yes, they do view capitalism and the capitalist state as inherently being white supremacist in nature, with the acts of people like the above being the visible tip of a very large iceberg. I think Stokely Carmichael said it best: “If a white man wants to lynch me, that's his problem. If he's got the power to lynch me, that's my problem. Racism is not a question of attitude; it's a question of power. Racism gets its power from capitalism. Thus, if you're anti-racist, whether you know it or not, you must be anti-capitalist. The power for racism, the power for sexism, comes from capitalism, not an attitude.”
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 26 2017 at 23:43
That's a great quote but I have to disagree with Stokely when he equates things to capitalism rather than attitude.   If a black person has money, they may be profiled by cops but they have a better life than a poor whitey.   Money, in fact capitalism itself, is a great if highly flawed equalizer.

No, it is attitude, Mr. Carmichael.   If it were capitalism that causes racism then only white people would have good incomes. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2017 at 11:21
Indeed Mick but there are of course regional differences. Most of those are the Northeast, West Coast and ya know random northern cities/areas. The sun belt, where people are flocking too and college educated people are filling up Metro areas remains quite conservative. Not that we need to win those tomorrow...just the usual Ohio and Iowa. (Assuming we dont lose the rust belt states again). As ya said, just repeat the Obama success which shouldn't be hard assuming the Dems get their heads out of their asses. 

As for what you say with the color of workers, no surprise. The working class is slowly turning non white, which is again why I think the Dems can and should push economics. It IS a racial issue. 
How so many (esp the activists who mean well) don't get this is beyond men. 
But yeah exactly that's what makes all this lazy racial sh*t so upsetting...it's soooo, well, wrong lol like literally not sync'd up with reality. If we were to actually crack down on Mexicans, and go through with this legal immigration curb (but I know it wont ever pass in their dreams) the economic impact would be very detrimental....funny because the right is using this phony populism "jobs! wages!" arguments. Of course we all know that's bullsh*t in 90% of cases, they just dont want those people here

Oh yeah...gunna have to disagree. I have no issue at all bashing capitalism and the societal problems it can produce but racism is very clearly outside that. That person can't seriously claim racism is a result of capitalism, and thus....ending capitalism would end racism? That, sounds a bit silly. Racism is sadly an inherent part of human nature and I reckon will exist outside any socioeconomic system. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2017 at 16:37
yeah the thing not to forget is really just how much of a fluke 2016 was. Again. .there were reasons why some, including very noteworthy Republicans (like a particular ex-President) openly wondered if the Republicans (as the party exists today would ever hold the Presidency again). The future is not bright at all for the Republican Party. Unless there is a true leader who says... stop the madness.. and in the process of alienating all the fundies, haters, bigots and racists that IS the base of the party and turns out to vote in the primaries thus commiting their own poltical career suicide.  There are none, no leaders of any conviction in that party of course.. look how they are dancing through the minefield of Trump. Not a ideal or conviction among them.  

the numbers show Trumps win in 2016 was quite fluke-ish. A perfect storm of him tapping into a wider populist streak that almost certainly will only work for him once (fool me once shame on you.. fool me twice).. and that set against .. to be honest.. a very flawed and much hated establishment candidate In Clinton. Even with all that .. she should have won.. and still nearly did with all the bullsh*t thrown at her to destroy her poltically as well as her own shooting herself in the foot.

 He lost the popular vote by millions and only pulled his inside straight in the electoral college by a wafer-thin 78,000 or so votes out of nearly 14 million cast across Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. So his win was a bit of a card trick to begin with and his political strength today is much less than it was on election day in 2016. 

And demography is still marching against him and the Republican Party

in 2020 America will be less older, less whiter and more younger and browner than it was in 2016. Trump gets crushed even if the Democrats do nominate a true left wing progressive, 


Edited by micky - August 27 2017 at 16:39
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2017 at 18:29
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Oh yeah...gunna have to disagree. I have no issue at all bashing capitalism and the societal problems it can produce but racism is very clearly outside that. That person can't seriously claim racism is a result of capitalism, and thus....ending capitalism would end racism? That, sounds a bit silly. Racism is sadly an inherent part of human nature and I reckon will exist outside any socioeconomic system.

I would disagree but I dont want to drag the thread in that direction, but I will say that race in its modern conception is only a few hundred years old and not a part of human nature imo (and I'd further add there is no such thing as human nature).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2017 at 19:28
Historically speaking, racism, like religious intolerance, has been practiced in monarchies and theocracies, as well as in fascist and communist states. Tribal animosity is nothing new; in fact, it's as old as man.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2017 at 20:36
Yeah, tribalism is the oldest ism and the root of, well, many of our problems.  Just that communists, just like capitalists, are unaware of how tribal they are.
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