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himtroy 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 20 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 1601
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 Posted: March 19 2010 at 20:37 |
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Woah! Woah! Libertarians? Defend? I have pretty Libertarian views and I barely support anything in this country.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: March 19 2010 at 21:06 |
 Padraic wrote:
There's a lot I could say, but increasingly my attitude is "what's the point?"
And Jay, I'm sorry, but I do put my family's interests above (the almost always ill-defined) "common good". If that makes me evil, well, I'm just an anonymous person on a message board, and I've been called worse.
Injecting this sort of language into the discourse is just such a turn-off for me. Sorry, had to say it.
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The first hyperbole from llama, and the attempt to defend it, was what prompted the EVIL comment.
Of course, in adult reality, it ends up coming to a matter of degree. How much should I be taxed for things like roads or whatever is decided that taxes should go for? Pretty much everyone agrees there has to be some minimums for these things (again roads) and then it just becomes how much.
And we all make evil and selfish choices, and sometimes we things easily named evil because there is no reasonable alternative. I've made plenty of them.
A friend of mine owns a small business. His kids go to the same private school mine do. His oldest is graduating and he chose to move to get him into a better public school. The members of that school district think it's dishonest, and yet one of the reasons he's doing it is because "I just couldn't send my kids to another private school when my guys haven't got a raise in 2 years." He's sending his son to a LESS resourced, rougher school to be able to give raises, and yet he's seen as cheating. His option? Send his son to the STL public schools and the land of knives and guns? Not a chance, but why are those schools so terrible in the first place?
Does the fact that I went to school forever and took out all these loans really mean I EARNED making more than roughly 95% of the populace? Does the fact that I have worked my entire career doing primary care in underserved areas mean that it's ok that my children go to a hand-picked private school while the public one for my neighborhood is an urban catastophe? I certainly know that my father worked much harder to earn 1/5 the salary I do. And at the same time, it's the American dream. His work also went into what I am now. I don't know what's fair.
But I do know one thing. The money in my pocket is not just the result of my hard work. It's the result of luck, my father's hard work, his father's before him, state scholarship programs, student loan programs, and even the choices of Thomas Jefferson and some of those old dudes.
Distribution of wealth is a very tricky thing.
Edited by Negoba - March 19 2010 at 21:12
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: March 19 2010 at 21:13 |
micky wrote:
if I wasn't married... I'd be all over you like stink on sh*t.
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I'm not sure after reading the rest whether this is meant as a good thing or a bad thing.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: March 19 2010 at 21:18 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
more perfect
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Never got that.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: March 19 2010 at 21:34 |
Funny how in these discussions, the term "society" means " they that ain't wealthy."
Rich people have a place in society too, and it isn't to serve as a sugar daddy.
Here's an idea: If rich people have to give their fortunes to society, poor people have to give an equivalent of their time and energy to society.
But wait...
...that would be...
...Slavery!
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10618
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Posted: March 19 2010 at 21:45 |
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^ Oh great, now you want to bring back slavery, is that part of that whole teabag thing.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: March 19 2010 at 21:48 |
Easy Money wrote:
^ Oh great, now you want to bring back slavery, is that part of that whole teabag thing. |
I also want to bring back eating Irish babies.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: March 19 2010 at 21:49 |
Negoba wrote:
Does the fact that I went to school forever and took out all these
loans really mean I EARNED making more than roughly 95% of the populace?
Does the fact that I have worked my entire career doing primary care in
underserved areas mean that it's ok that my children go to a
hand-picked private school while the public one for my neighborhood is
an urban catastophe?
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Yes.
That's supply and demand. If I make a product or offer a service that a
lot of people want, I can be rich. The guy who made up Facebook was 19
years old when he launched it. He's wealthier than you will ever be
with all that training you did. Is it fair?
Yes.
What's my second favorite band?
Yes.
Will I listen to them now?
No. Because I am tired.
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: March 19 2010 at 21:52 |
Negoba wrote:
Does the fact that I went to school forever and took out all these loans really mean I EARNED making more than roughly 95% of the populace? |
Yes - that you have the intelligence, skill, and commitment to get to where you are means you earned it. You worked hard to achieve all you have - why apologize for it? I don't. I do apologize for my previous snarkiness.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: March 19 2010 at 22:24 |
I knew the rules of the game, played a good hand in a pretty straightforward manner, and now I'm receiving the benefits.
But it could be a lot friendlier game we're all playing.
I apologize for my own hyperboles as well.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: March 19 2010 at 22:31 |
Epignosis wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
^ Oh great, now you want to bring back slavery, is that part of that whole teabag thing. |
I also want to bring back eating Irish babies.
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Not overly modest now, are we?
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jammun
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 14 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3449
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Posted: March 19 2010 at 22:34 |
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I'm surprised no one has compared the U.S. health care system with the legal system. Unless I'm confused, anyone accused of a crime has at minimum a right to free legal representation, generously provided by the state (i.e., if you can't afford an attorney, one will be provided). The taxpayers fund this generosity. Now it may not be the best possible legal counsel, and yer ass may still end up in jail, but it's free and you will not be bankrupt and in jail. So does it not make sense that the U.S. should provide at least a minimal right to health care? And we could probably pay for it all by getting rid of that right to free counsel. So you're charged with a crime, have no legal representation, and end up in prison. On the plus side, you'll then be eligible for absolutely free taxpayer-funded health care.
Edited by jammun - March 19 2010 at 22:35
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Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon.
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: March 19 2010 at 22:34 |
Padraic wrote:
Negoba wrote:
Does the fact that I went to school forever and took out all these loans really mean I EARNED making more than roughly 95% of the populace? |
Yes - that you have the intelligence, skill, and commitment to get to where you are means you earned it.
You worked hard to achieve all you have - why apologize for it? I don't.
I do apologize for my previous snarkiness.
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See, that makes sense, that those who take the high route and go to school and exercise their brain a lot get to make a lot of money. What is truly unforgivable is that necessary jobs (police officers and your everyday hero types come to mind) don't really get paid that much, when any cop is just as valuable if not more so than a doctor, yet gets paid fractions less. School =/= value, necessarily.
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: March 19 2010 at 22:36 |
jammun wrote:
I'm surprised no one has compared the U.S. health care system with the legal system. Unless I'm confused, anyone accused of a crime has at minimum a right to free legal representation, generously provided by the state (i.e., if you can't afford an attorney, one will be provided). The taxpayers fund this generosity. Now it may not be the best possible legal counsel, and yer ass may still end up in jail, but it's free and you will not be bankrupt and in jail. So does it not make sense that the U.S. should provide at least a minimal right to health care? And we could probably pay for it all by getting rid of that right to free counsel. So you're charged with a crime, have no legal representation, and end up in prison. On the plus side, you'll then be eligible for absolutely free taxpayer-funded health care. |
I don't know if that last bit is sarcastic. I hope so, because it's backward-minded as all hell.
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jammun
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 14 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3449
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Posted: March 19 2010 at 22:38 |
stonebeard wrote:
jammun wrote:
I'm surprised no one has compared the U.S. health care system with the legal system. Unless I'm confused, anyone accused of a crime has at minimum a right to free legal representation, generously provided by the state (i.e., if you can't afford an attorney, one will be provided). The taxpayers fund this generosity. Now it may not be the best possible legal counsel, and yer ass may still end up in jail, but it's free and you will not be bankrupt and in jail. So does it not make sense that the U.S. should provide at least a minimal right to health care? And we could probably pay for it all by getting rid of that right to free counsel. So you're charged with a crime, have no legal representation, and end up in prison. On the plus side, you'll then be eligible for absolutely free taxpayer-funded health care. |
I don't know if that last bit is sarcastic. I hope so, because it's backward-minded as all hell.
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Actually, I don't know if I'm being sarcastic or not. I don't know if that whole post is sarcastic or not. All's I'm saying, is that a certain segment of our population already has complete access to taxpayer-funded, free health care.
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Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon.
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Man With Hat
Collaborator
Jazz-Rock/Fusion/Canterbury Team
Joined: March 12 2005
Location: Neurotica
Status: Offline
Points: 166178
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Posted: March 19 2010 at 22:40 |
'For profit' may be the worst two word combination in the english language.
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Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: March 19 2010 at 22:41 |
stonebeard wrote:
Padraic wrote:
Negoba wrote:
Does the fact that I went to school forever and took out all these loans really mean I EARNED making more than roughly 95% of the populace? |
Yes - that you have the intelligence, skill, and commitment to get to where you are means you earned it.
You worked hard to achieve all you have - why apologize for it? I don't.
I do apologize for my previous snarkiness.
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See, that makes sense, that those who take the high route and go to school and exercise their brain a lot get to make a lot of money.
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No, those who perform high-demand jobs* get to make a lot of money. There is good correlation with education, of course, but the piece of paper isn't a guarantee of anything. * or work in the financial industry 
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65266
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Posted: March 19 2010 at 22:42 |
jammun wrote:
Actually, I don't know if I'm being sarcastic or not. I don't know if that whole post is sarcastic or not. All's I'm saying, is that a certain segment of our population already has complete access to taxpayer-funded, free health care. |
yes, Congress
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jammun
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 14 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3449
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Posted: March 19 2010 at 22:43 |
Yep, ol' Bernie Madoff earned every cent he made. Of course, now he's in prison. On the plus side he's got that free health care.
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Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon.
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jammun
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 14 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3449
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Posted: March 19 2010 at 22:44 |
Atavachron wrote:
jammun wrote:
Actually, I don't know if I'm being sarcastic or not. I don't know if that whole post is sarcastic or not. All's I'm saying, is that a certain segment of our population already has complete access to taxpayer-funded, free health care. |
yes, Congress
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Actually, I was referring to the other 3.2% of the criminal population.
Edited by jammun - March 19 2010 at 22:45
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Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon.
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