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RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams
Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
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Points: 14514
Posted: September 25 2016 at 10:06
WeepingElf wrote:
Davesax1965 wrote:
So now we've had the historical prelude, hands up how many people believe that a large number of prog rock musicians sat down and made a detailed historical study of English medieval music and politics before flipping the power switch on a Mellotron ?
Probably none at all.
I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Points: 20617
Posted: September 26 2016 at 04:33
Some more food for thought. German ethnomusicologist Britta Sweers' 2005 book titled Electric Folk, about the late sixties/early seventies English folk rock movement, which she considers to be "electric folk', even though Pentangle shied away from using any electric instruments (on their early studio albums), relates Pentangle member John Renbourn's fascination with "medieval and renaissance" music on his solo album Sir John A lot...And Ye Greene Knight.Sir John... is really an album of Elizabethan style songs, along with a few acoustic blues numbers. The compositions were all by Renbourn, so the best description of the former would be "pseudo-Elizabethan."
I believe that it's this type of academic inaccuracy that causes a great deal of confusion with the general public in regards to medieval music being incorporated into folk rock and prog music.
Edited by SteveG - September 26 2016 at 04:40
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Joined: June 21 2006
Location: Switzerland
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Points: 997
Posted: September 26 2016 at 10:32
SteveG wrote:
Dean wrote:
It is nobler still to do that in this world without the promise of reward (or threat of punishment) in the next - once you get past that there is little need for a next world at all.
I agree 100%. There's nothing more that I can add to this statement.
Fine but please leave that kind of comments to people who've been disabled for a very long time and survive through endless pains
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Points: 20617
Posted: September 26 2016 at 11:07
^I'm sorry my dear chap, but people of faith do not have a monopoly on pain and suffering. This is not the time and place for this discussion, but I would be happy to continue this discussion via a PM.
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Special Collaborator
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Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Points: 37575
Posted: September 27 2016 at 00:44
jayem wrote:
Fine but please leave that kind of comments to people who've been disabled for a very long time and survive through endless pains
The promise of an afterlife is the most evil and wicked deceit that religion has ever purportraited. I despise any omnipotent god that has the power to prevent pain and suffering in this world but chooses not to. It is a conceit and it is a despicably abhorrent one.
Joined: June 21 2006
Location: Switzerland
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Points: 997
Posted: September 27 2016 at 01:36
Dean wrote:
jayem wrote:
Fine but please leave that kind of comments to people who've been disabled for a very long time and survive through endless pains
The promise of an afterlife is the most evil and wicked deceit that religion has ever purportraited. I despise any omnipotent god that has the power to prevent pain and suffering in this world but chooses not to. It is a conceit and it is a despicably abhorrent one.
If we're going to argue my path won't be about how a nice God should make sense to logicians, but rather posting about placebo effect, the power of imagination and the capacity to ignore what we don't like in reality. O'course I'll be far out of my depth as usual... PM? (I've PMed SteveG but he hasn't answered yet).
Joined: June 21 2006
Location: Switzerland
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Points: 997
Posted: September 27 2016 at 11:01
WeepingElf wrote:
Whether there is an afterlife or not is a difficult question, but is there any need to discuss it here?
...Not that difficult: evidences on how the brain and nervous system work show that an afterlife is more than unlikely, exception made of the concept and fantasy of it.
A difficult question remains: should one try by all means to reason someone who believes in it?
We'll need to discuss it here if it helps us understand why medieval influences can be found so often in prog.
Joined: September 25 2016
Location: Ireland
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Points: 36
Posted: September 27 2016 at 14:11
A lot of interesting discussion in this thread about medieval music and how we don't truly know how it sounds; but I was under the impression that Gentle Giant incorporated medieval (or perhaps I was misinformed and it was a different time period) scales into their songwriting?
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Posted: September 27 2016 at 18:28
thepurplepiper wrote:
A lot of interesting discussion in this thread about medieval music and how we don't truly know how it sounds; but I was under the impression that Gentle Giant incorporated medieval (or perhaps I was misinformed and it was a different time period) scales into their songwriting?
Correct. The Modes (scales) are even older than that, Aristotle and his pupils described these scales back in the 4th century BCE. Using ancient scales does not recreate ancient music, these modes were used in Jazz long before Gentle Giant and none of that ever sounded Medieval (or ancient Greek).
Joined: August 18 2013
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Posted: September 28 2016 at 09:40
It has to be noted that in Medieval and Renaissance music, the names of the modes such as Lydian, Phrygian etc. do not refer to the same scales as they do in ancient Greek music. The names were taken from ancient Greek writings and applied to the Medieval modes at a time when people did not know what the ancient Greek modes were like and thus applied "wrongly". The ancient Greek system was much more complex than the Medieval/Renaissance system; for instance, some ancient Greek modes used quarter-tones.
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"What does Elvish rock music sound like?" - "Yes."
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Joined: May 13 2007
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Posted: September 28 2016 at 11:31
WeepingElf wrote:
It has to be noted that in Medieval and Renaissance music, the names of the modes such as Lydian, Phrygian etc. do not refer to the same scales as they do in ancient Greek music. The names were taken from ancient Greek writings and applied to the Medieval modes at a time when people did not know what the ancient Greek modes were like and thus applied "wrongly". The ancient Greek system was much more complex than the Medieval/Renaissance system; for instance, some ancient Greek modes used quarter-tones.
Correct, I was trying to keep it simple as making it over-complex is an unnecessary distraction. However, you have made the point that others in this thread has been making - without a means of writing down music or recording performance no one knew what music of an earlier era was like.
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Posted: September 29 2016 at 04:15
Saperlipopette! wrote:
but Limenlos: Second Hymne Delphique a Apollon reminds me of Giacinto Scelsi + selected Avant / RIO / Zeuhl-stuff:
- I know I know, but still kinda fascinating isn't it?
Yes, it's the perfect example of what people imagine the music of ancient Greece meets the Renaissance would sounds like. Plus Zeuhl? Even the ancient Greeks weren't that progressive.
Joined: December 20 2010
Location: Tomorrowland
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Points: 12299
Posted: September 29 2016 at 05:02
^But if its anywhere near accurate and this was close to what the ancient greek teens were streaming, and their postmen were whistling to while delivering Ancient Greek Times to the subscribing philosophers and semi gods, I'd say we still haven't caught up with them.
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Medieval Influences and England role in Prog Rock
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WeepingElf wrote:
it's a bit of a strawman polemic because nothing in prog was determined by committee or by deliberate intent.
