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Logan 
Forum & Site Admin Group 
Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 35960 |
 Posted: July 21 2017 at 17:52 |
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If I'm reading you right, just because he thinks that might have been a reason why people did not support Obama and why people wouldn't support H. Clinton (I have come across people who believed that) does not make him a racist or anti-feminist.
Edited by Logan - July 21 2017 at 17:52 |
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65268 |
Posted: July 21 2017 at 18:51 |
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I don't think Obama would've won twice with near 55% voters if the black issue had been a real problem. Same for Hillary. If it's a "backlash" it was far too late to avoid the sociopolitical impact Obama had, and if England and Germany and Israel can have lady leaders, there are no stigmas left.
That said, the American in Europe may be reflecting a small (and shrinking) but still nagging culturalism in the US different than typical racism. Americans who voted for Donald Trump fear their country is becoming less like the one they know and understand due to immigration, political insiderism, and economic disadvantage, not so much that they fear someone's color or sex per se. In other words, if Trump were progressive he probably wouldn't have won. Edited by Atavachron - July 21 2017 at 18:52 |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: July 22 2017 at 01:20 |
To be fair, I don't know what language exactly he used and can only go by what you describe. But if all he said was what you described, I am sorry to say I find your over-reaction a little amusing and maybe symptomatic of the problems with PC culture gone overboard in the Western world. What he said comes across as a dispassionate assessment of the FACTORS involved in an election, where politicians seek to build a winning coalition out of diverse and often opposed groups. It is difficult to unpack the reasons behind an election win or defeat WITHOUT examining which race/gender voted for who. Caste/religion is as inflammatory a topic in India as race is in America and yet elections are always analysed from the prism of which caste and religion groups got behind which party, because it's what makes or breaks elections. Doesn't make him a racist just for saying that. By the by, that was pretty much what Van Jones of CNN said as the results unfolded, dubbing the result a 'whitelash'. Does that make him a racist? (Hint: Van Jones is black!) Many commentators have responded angrily to suggestions to look at the problems of the white working class in USA (who deserted the Democrats), saying that is a way of whitewashing how much the result was about race. Does that make them racist? Pl think carefully before you decide somebody is being racist or offensive. Bringing race into a discussion by itself doesn't make someone racist and it depends on the context.
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npjnpj
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: December 05 2007 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 2720 |
Posted: July 22 2017 at 05:41 |
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Ok, thanks for taking the time to help me get things into perspective. Much appreciated.
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 35960 |
Posted: July 22 2017 at 17:00 |
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There can be a big difference between making a case or giving reasons for something and giving those possible reasons while believing that the reasons are ethically justifiable as you surely must know. The truth is not always pretty.
I've engaged in thought experiments where people assumed I was a monster for saying certain things. I was so upset that I had no choice but to consume their souls just to get my spirits up. Edited by Logan - July 22 2017 at 17:02 |
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: July 23 2017 at 12:31 |
I am not sure. See, I want to agree, I do. But more and more internal stories come out, I wonder if he really IS this much of a stupid oaf, (which of course makes you ripe for being taken advantage of especially by corrupt or seedy kinds). Like did anyone hear? The final straw for Chrisite was that he offered Trump his cell phone....seriously. Trump is apparently a mega germaphobe and that sent him over the deep end, pretty much after that it was over for Chris. And Manafort....he said something about how, basically, Trump watches so much TV but it wasn't even an insult, it was along the lines of "Some of us do TV interviews as a good way to reach out to Trump" and he went nuclear on Manafort, pretty much that was the end for him. He recently was explaining life insurance to a reporter, but calling it health insurance. Every day something comes out that reveals more he's the epitome of a manchild, and has zero idea what he's doing or really knows much of anything. The same book that discussed the Christie/Manafort things also explained how he really never cared about the wall, but crowds in Iowa "went wild" for it, so he was sold. I've heard other things like that, he thought "drain the swamp" was dumb, but people love it, same with "crooked hillary". He seems like a total blank slate, that is only good at giving people what they want, in a very very surface level way. Already been reported many times from various people he never expected to win, back to the book (that I should pick up) Trump didn't even have a victory speech, at all. When he got the call, he told someone "let's do this" as in whip up a speech and just went out. The guy had 0 prep literally minutes before his victory speech. SO I think he may indeed be this dumb, making him perfect for Putin, Bannon, family members and the Republican Party to use him, but the GOP is also incompetent and a walking disaster so they have failed thus far.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: July 23 2017 at 12:49 |
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The Russia implications are indeed disturbing.
On that note, the House and Senate have agreed on a new sanctions bill, one placing new sanctions on Russia and limits Trump's power to undo them on his own. Passed the Senate 98-2 and while the House has yet to vote I believe it's been agreed on. It also slapped sanctions on Iran and N Korea. A bit ago the Senate passed a similar bill but the House couldn't agree, it seems the Iran and N Korea sanctions were added to help, (ya know the GOP can't dare look mean to Russia...easier to package it with some others). This is huge, it's a direct pressure on Trump who either has to sign it, or veto it but look even worse on the Russian front, and chances are it'd be overridden. This is I appreciate, even if the House GOP did cop out a bit. Usually I am not for sanctions, and I don't like this one adds random other countries on there, at least in this case with Russia I can get it, given their actions in Ukraine, and various election meddling attempts. The collapsing Russian economy did cause Putin's numbers to fall, so I also reckon that may be the only possible hope to shake his stranglehold on Russia, is to weaken the economy. Otherwise, I can't speak to the Russian populace but he seems to be widely supported otherwise.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: July 28 2017 at 00:32 |
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Wow. WOW. The latest GOP attempt to muck up the ACA "the skinny repeal" failed 49-51. No shock from Collins and Murkowski but John McCain....John flippin McCain was a no, basically the deciding no. And Mitch has, seemingly, accepted defeat. Least for now.
The ACA lives.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65268 |
Posted: July 28 2017 at 00:55 |
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^ and how about Lindsey Graham calling the bill "a disaster".
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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LearsFool
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 09 2014 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 8642 |
Posted: July 28 2017 at 13:16 |
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What amazes me about last night was how the Senate GOP was so desperate to go to conference with anything that they ultimately tried to go ahead with a bill they begged and pleaded with Ryan not to pass. They wanted to advance a bill they didn't want to become law. Quite hilarious in retrospect.
Analysis by WaPo suggests that McCain basically took a political bullet so that his at risk fellow senators wouldn't feel compelled to vote against such a stupid bill, which would've inflamed the anti-ACA core of their base... at the expense of all the other voters in their states. It certainly was interesting watching him scheme with Schumer and Feinstein near the end, giving them big smiles.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20609 |
Posted: July 28 2017 at 13:45 |
Revenge does seem to be a better dish when served up cold.
 Edited by SteveG - July 28 2017 at 13:45 |
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 03 2007 Location: The Heartland Status: Offline Points: 16913 |
Posted: July 28 2017 at 14:56 |
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Amazing.
The time has never seemed riper for Dems to go for single-payer as a platform plank, to go big for 2018. Will they? |
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LearsFool
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 09 2014 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 8642 |
Posted: July 28 2017 at 15:30 |
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Ooo, now Priebus has gotten the boot, with John Kelly (!) apparently getting kicked upstairs to Chief of Staff from Homeland Security. The latter fact - keeping Kelly from ruining any more lives - makes me warm and fuzzy inside.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65268 |
Posted: July 28 2017 at 17:11 |
Only unless they can actually win... anything... ever. |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20609 |
Posted: July 29 2017 at 03:14 |
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We need someone to make the Democratic Party great again. Someone who will make them win so much that they will be sick of winning. We need the Democratic equivalent of Trump.
Bernie! Bernie! Bernie!
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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npjnpj
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2007 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 2720 |
Posted: July 29 2017 at 14:37 |
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The past week has been just too much, so rant coming up:
OK, so here’s how I see it (in fact the same as before (see somewhere lambasted above)), but further details are emerging all the time: President Trump, as is now apparently beginning to be investigated, seems to have been laundering Russian mob money through his New York businesses for decades. This means that he is compromised, the and corresponding breadcrumb trail has been laid. No wonder he's a tad touchy about Robert Muller's probe. So here’s what I’m surmising: during the campaign he was approached by the Russians, who have since the inauguration turned the pressure on. This might have been two-pronged, meaning that his dealings are threatened to be exposed, and possibly even a new deal has been offered (to sweeten things up a bit) for instance to enable him to make vast dealings in Russian related countries at a future date? More fool him, if so. Just suppose that the Russian demands would be such things as to sever ties to international allies (NATO, the UN, Europe in general etc.), sew unrest among international agreement partners (Paris etc.), damage the ecology (fracking: Yeah!! Pipelines in Alaska, Yeah!!!), alienate previous allies (the Mexico wall, Australia), and internally split the US communities, split the democratic institutions such as the Senate and the House of Representatives (even more than they are already), cause chaos in the legislative process (repeal and replace), weaken the economy through uncertain policies, encourage criminal behavior (police brutality), make sexual innuendos towards boy scouts, demean transgender military personnel, and generally destabilize the country and its institutions, and brazenly spread obvious lies continuously. And this is only an extract. But wait, at least there are great new jobs for the miners, the backbone of the US economy. The miners? Seriously? The funny thing is that I suspect that the Russians probably only had to instruct
him to not act presidentially, but just be himself. Sad! Thank goodness that Ivanka has (as she stated) got such a soothing influence on him. Everything else, such as his tweets, his White House personnel appointments (fancy working there and being covered by a military general on one side and a hit man with Tourette syndrome on the other), the nobbled press briefings, and the nepotism are distractions and nothing more Lots of generals now, by the way. Gotta catch'em all. And, of course, he was probably instructed to tweet constantly. His seemingly insane tweet barrages and rants are working: everything he sends out is like throwing a hand full of seeds into the media chicken coop. And boy, do they flap around all these comparatively unimportant issues! I think that Robert Muller’s enquiry is practically the last hope, but I fear that there is so much sh*t being shoveled his way that he’ll be kept busy for years, probably for more than eight, if it’s still even an issue by then. Yikes, is the US in deep doodoo! Sadly, by association, so is almost everyone else on this planet, except the Russians and the Chinese. Edited by npjnpj - July 29 2017 at 15:09 |
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ProfPanglos
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 25 2017 Location: Austin, Texas Status: Offline Points: 624 |
Posted: July 29 2017 at 15:45 |
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I didn't vote for him.
I didn't vote at all - no one running was qualified and/or competent, and I've long-since abandoned the idea of voting for the "lesser of two evils." I'll only vote if and when someone serious, sane, professional, poised, and qualified runs for the office, and only then.
That disclaimer now made, I'll make a few observations: 1. Trump is a buffoon and in a sane world would never have been elected. However, the world at large (and the USA in particular) abandoned sanity quite some time ago. 2. Trump is better at 'playing' the media than possibly anyone in modern history. 3. Because of #2, the media is indeed out to get Trump at all costs. They are desperate to bring him down, and it is no secret that the "mainstream" media has been, for decades, left-leaning. The main media outlets are grasping at anything, and I mean anything, to try to bury Trump. 4. There are no facts out [yet] regarding anything Trump has been accused of in regard to shady business deals, election manipulation, collusion with Russia, etc. Everything [right now] is speculation, and the media is definitely pushing it and playing it up. (Time will tell. I don't really have strong feelings about it one way or another. If he goes down in flames, so be it - and if he does, I hope it's because he deserves it, and not because he was framed or bulldozed. If he rises above it all, so be it - and if he does, I hope it's because he was telling the truth about it all being a "witch hunt." Either way, his supporters will likely never turn on him, no matter how dirty he might eventually turn out to be, and his haters will never stop hating him, no matter how innocent or admirable he may eventually turn out to be...) 5. During the run-up to the election, it did not take a rocket scientist to understand that Trump was telling the heartland of America everything they wanted to hear. Many, very many [not "Republican," but] conservative Americans were fed-up and infinitely tired of Obama and the liberal-left agenda to transform the country into a "progressive" socialist state. That is precisely why Trump got elected. Obama left this country far more divided (culture-war) than when he stepped in in 2008. Trump paid lip-service to those on the conservative/traditional side of the culture war, and they voted him in. Plain and simple. 5. For someone who wrote books about his successes, and who said a lot of his success was due to surrounding himself with the best people in the business, he seems to be ignoring his own advice. Scaramucci? What a total infantile clown! I give Scaramucci 3 months, tops, before he self-destructs or gets arrested or says something so completely crazy that Trump has no choice but to fire him. Who needs House of Cards when you have all this? :) |
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 03 2007 Location: The Heartland Status: Offline Points: 16913 |
Posted: July 29 2017 at 16:03 |
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Good post, Eric.
Trump is an ass, and people around here don't like his supporters. But neither are to blame for where this country has fallen in half a century's time. It was all here long before Trump and the tragedies will be here long after him, even after the next liberal Savior is elected. |
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: July 30 2017 at 13:42 |
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I also wondered if personal revenge was part of McCain's reasoning. No matter how you feel about the guy, being mocked for getting captured is beyond politics low....and of course "just f**kin die already" and people basically asking him to just quit the moment his cancer was announced so ya know, they can have the seat. I do believe it was all Trumpers.... But I also heard that other theory that yes, he may have basically taken one for the team. Given his age/health it's unlikely he'd run again in 2022 (now we're not even sure he'll make it there) so he was able to "save the GOP from themselves" and is willing to live with the consequences, since this is surely his last term anyway. It could very well be.
That is the million dollar question. It really all depends on those pesky donors....ideologically there's not much stopping em, but back in 2009 it was a few powerful senators that had HEFTY donations from the health insurance industry that refused to even hear a public option. Like I've said...people think you're just being a whiney millennial, or missing the real target, when you go on about money in politics but this is why it's drastically important. They got in the way in 2009, just like they've done since the days of FDR
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: July 30 2017 at 13:47 |
I'm sure you jest, buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut just wanna throw it out there again: -Popular with the white working class -Extremely popular with the youth -Popular with independents -Popular in general, numbers were better than Clinton's and esp Trump Clinton lost due to: The rust belt going red, a drop in youth voting (esp in key states), losing Independents, and while Trump was unpopular so was she... Add to it his ideas about healthcare, college, higher min wages, regulating wall st and etc really are fairly popular...like I said just throwing it out there. Yes, Trump is an absolute idiot, it's become clear but that is true, he is master manipulator of the media. In this regard he's disturbingly brilliant.
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The American Politics Thread
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npjnpj wrote: