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Textbook 
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Joined: October 08 2009
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Points: 3281
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 Posted: July 21 2010 at 18:18 |
But that is a different matter Ivan. Those people may not have been religious, but they were monstrous people. A benevolent leader who does not believe in heaven may be less inclined to send people to their death.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: July 21 2010 at 18:21 |
 Textbook wrote:
Similarly some blame religion for environmental degradation, in that if you believe in judgement day and heaven, obviously this world is an ephemeral place. What matter if it gets spoiled, we're going to heaven, right? Sincere belief in heavenly paradises may make people apathetic about preserving the planet. Your kids and their kids will go to heaven too, so who cares what conditions future generations face on Earth. Thoughts? |
Again, it reveals ignorance of the Church, as a fact the Pope has declared pollution, animal abuse and another acts against environment deadly sins.
To make it even more clear, the Vatican gets all the electric power from the sun and the excedent is sold to Rome in almost 50% of the cost of normal electricity.
So if you pollute, you are in deadly sin.
Plus, we are religious, not stupid, we all want our sons to live in a clean, healthy world.
Iván
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: July 21 2010 at 18:22 |
Textbook wrote:
But that is a different matter Ivan. Those people may not have been religious, but they were monstrous people. A benevolent leader who does not believe in heaven may be less inclined to send people to their death. |
One simple question.Where they atheists or not?
Monsters or not they were atheists.
Iván
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
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Points: 3281
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Posted: July 21 2010 at 18:25 |
So? I don't think you understand what I'm asking.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: July 21 2010 at 18:33 |
Textbook wrote:
So? I don't think you understand what I'm asking. |
Of course I understand, but in the last pages I found how some of you are so eager to find excuses when an atheist commits a crime, you always say it's politics, it's communism, the are monsters, etc.
But when a religious person makes something you consider wrong it has to be religion's fault.
I believe you should judge both sides with thesame rules.
I think an atheist or a religious person may be a criminal or send people to war, even when the biggest genocides of this century have een made by atheists..
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 21 2010 at 18:35
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Icarium
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: March 21 2008
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Points: 34076
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Posted: July 21 2010 at 18:49 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Textbook wrote:
Similarly some blame religion for environmental degradation, in that if you believe in judgement day and heaven, obviously this world is an ephemeral place. What matter if it gets spoiled, we're going to heaven, right? Sincere belief in heavenly paradises may make people apathetic about preserving the planet. Your kids and their kids will go to heaven too, so who cares what conditions future generations face on Earth. Thoughts? |
Again, it reveals ignorance of the Church, as a fact the Pope has declared pollution, animal abuse and another acts against environment deadly sins.
To make it even more clear, the Vatican gets all the electric power from the sun and the excedent is sold to Rome in almost 50% of the cost of normal electricity.
So if you pollute, you are in deadly sin.
Plus, we are religious, not stupid, we all want our sons to live in a clean, healthy world.
Iván
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" the Vatican gets all its power from the sun and the excedent is sold to Rome in almost 50% of the cost of normal electricity".
my word jugeling mind jus had to doo some correction   hope you don't mind, not to be rude but when I see words or senteces i always finds ways to undoo them, that is some of my skills, words playing.
anyway alot of the medeval popes where not the nicest guys eather but that is old history, I know that you can't compare christianity as to what it was in the medeval to the what it s today, much more refined, bot the only ideology that are allowed,
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Textbook
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Points: 3281
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Posted: July 21 2010 at 18:56 |
Ivan: If the religious principles of the person guide their actions then yes it is the religion that causes the behaviour, good or bad, right?
But a non religious person is guided by other things like politics, economy etc.
I don't see how this is controversial.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: July 21 2010 at 19:11 |
Textbook wrote:
Ivan: If the religious principles of the person guide their actions then yes it is the religion that causes the behaviour, good or bad, right?
But a non religious person is guided by other things like politics, economy etc.
I don't see how this is controversial. |
Why have I read several times by atheists (Mike has wrote this in a thread) "Hiter was a Christian" and it's OK for them, but when we say Stalin, Pol Pot, Castro, etc were atheists and you say, hey blame Communism, Maoism or whatever.
Religious and atheist people are equally otriented to start wars and kill others, it's in human nature.
Even Medieval Church killed people for power (not electrical power as the sun cells I mentioned in the past post Aginor) and politics, the Borgia or Medici families wanted the Papacy to make their clans more and mnore powerful, and that's why most of them are abnti-Popes and rejected by the Church, to the point that John Paul II asked pardon for this people's acts.
Some atheists are very aggressive against religion but very tame when judging similar acts by atheists.
Wasn't Mao (An atheist and communist criminal) the one who said "Religion is a Poison" while causing the dead of 60 to 90 millions persons who had done nothing wrong?
Iván
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
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Posted: July 21 2010 at 19:14 |
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I still don't think you understand. You seem to think I'm saying religious people are more likely to commit atrocities than non-religious. That is not the case. I'm saying religious beliefs do influence actions and logically, one who believes that the dead will go to heaven, MUST feel better about their deaths than someone who does not believe in heaven.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
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Posted: July 21 2010 at 19:19 |
Textbook wrote:
I still don't think you understand. You seem to think I'm saying religious people are more likely to commit atrocities than non-religious. That is not the case. |
Not necessarily more likely. A function of numbers perhaps?
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: July 21 2010 at 19:23 |
Textbook wrote:
I still don't think you understand. You seem to think I'm saying religious people are more likely to commit atrocities than non-religious. That is not the case. I'm saying religious beliefs do influence actions and logically, one who believes that the dead will go to heaven, MUST feel better about their deaths than someone who does not believe in heaven. |
I got it from yout initial post, and is equally absurd;
Not all the soldiers are from the religion of the President, plus the President doesn't know if this guys deserve salvation, so they could be sending them to eternal absence of God without giving them a chance to repent from their sins.
Lets be honest, politicians, no matter if Catholic, Jewish or Atheists will start a war if if provides a benefit for them and their country.
Iván
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
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Posted: July 21 2010 at 19:26 |
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So basically you're saying all politicians are not sincere believers? (Because I think you'd agree a sincere believer does not put his nation before his god.)
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Chris S
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Posted: July 21 2010 at 19:59 |
A bit like a burqa folks....bad people do hide behind religion, bad atheists do commit atrocities too
Holy wars/Jihads/Ethnic cleansing - The devil in full frontal, not even disguise 
Edited by Chris S - July 21 2010 at 20:00
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: July 21 2010 at 20:01 |
Textbook wrote:
So basically you're saying all politicians are not sincere believers? (Because I think you'd agree a sincere believer does not put his nation before his god.) |
I don't know if they are sincere believers or not, but they have a parallel duty that is very important for them.
Remember that believers have taken an oath before God to do whatever they believe is better for their country.
And non believers, don't care for God as you will,imagine.
Iván
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Icarium
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: March 21 2008
Location: Tigerstaden
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Points: 34076
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Posted: July 21 2010 at 20:07 |
I have just one thing to say............... Denny Crane...
(for those who have seen Boston Legal knows who he is)
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Atavachron
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Joined: September 30 2006
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Points: 65521
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Posted: July 21 2010 at 20:09 |
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William Shatner Reads William Shakespeare
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DisgruntledPorcupine
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 16 2010
Location: Thunder Bay CAN
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Points: 4395
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Posted: July 21 2010 at 22:38 |
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Page 44, still not settled?
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The T
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Joined: October 16 2006
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Posted: July 21 2010 at 22:50 |
Atavachron wrote:
William Shatner Reads William Shakespeare
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It would be more amazing if someone here recognized that he/she reads William Shatner.
Done. Settled.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19557
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Posted: July 22 2010 at 00:05 |
The T wrote:
It would be more amazing if someone here recognized that he/she reads William Shatner.
Done. Settled. |
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your science
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 22 2010 at 00:22
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
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Points: 5195
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Posted: July 22 2010 at 00:38 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
^ Well, ordained or not, consecrated or not ... wafers they were, and wafers they remain. I'm relieved though that the video didn't totally upset you. |
The video only reveals the ignorance of some people:
- A guy who believs he can be ordained priest by mail, is a perfect idiot.
- A guy who believes he can coonsecrate a host by the power invested by Internet is twice an idiot
- A guy who claims we believe that a host turns into flesh .ad meat, is an ignorant, the eklements remain intact, the precense is spiritual.
- A guy whjo insults other people's beliefs is simply an inseccure jerk.
So no, it doesn't affect me, idiots don't bother me.
Iván
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Given the choice, I'd rather be perceived by you to be an idiot or insecure jerk, than be perceived as a humorless, petulant prick by the rest of the world. Sorry, but that's how you come across in this post IMO.
Edited by Mr ProgFreak - July 22 2010 at 04:56
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Theism vs. Atheism ... will it ever be settled?
