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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2011 at 07:58
^ Do you know what USB cables are?
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Negoba View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2011 at 08:04

does he even truly understand the difference between digital and analog and even the most basic implications?

You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2011 at 08:05
There are differences between different digital cables as well as between fiber optic (which are bad sounding) and digital cables. I don't explain but it's true.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2011 at 08:09

"Why is there any sound degradation ? it all depends on signal quality. In USB-audio the computer sends the data to the USB-DAC in datapackets.
If the DAC receives error/missing packets there is only a very small timeframe during what the DAC can tell the computer to re-send the packets.
If this timeframe is passed, the music is played without these packets and this is degrading the soundquality. USB-Audio transfer is a completely different thing as USB-data transfer. If eg. a USB-harddisk receives bad packets, the disk asks the computer to resend until the missing/damaged packets are arrived or if the USB cable is bad
they reducing the transfer-speed.



Ferrite
Ferrite rings/beads have to be avoided, as they affecting the highs. Because they filter in same frequency areas as the transmitted USB-audio data.

USB signal quality
Just because it is a USB-signal, it is not automatically resistant against signal-alteration due to different influences! The trivial argument: that is digital, so 0 or 1, yes or no, there can nothing be wrong, is a statement in general only made by users who have no own experience in developing digital- or data-technology.
The development of best USB-cables requires appropriate measuring equipment, where signal-problems can be detected and on construction level and proper material selection nearly be eliminated.
Even here: the ear is also a development tool.


USB Signal Measurements
If we find the time, we will publish here some screenshots and measurement protocols of USB-signals. Professional USB-developers will explain the results in an understandable manner. We will compare and analyse standard USB-cables with AQVOX USB-cables.


To be honest: for our experience, the sonic differences between USB2.0 cables can be huge when it comes to audiophile standards. The AQVOX USB cable sounds very open, transprent and natural, without any harshness. Our customers can go sure, that the AQVOX highend USB cable is made of the very best materials, provides maximum soundquality and exceeds the USB2.0 design specifications. A good hifi set will reveal the advantages of a good USB connection. The sound improves over the complete frequency bandwidth and in all aspects.
Just try it ! "

Source:

http://www.aqvox.de/cable.html

Edited by oliverstoned - July 12 2011 at 08:11
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2011 at 08:14
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

There are differences between different digital cables as well as between fiber optic (which are bad sounding) and digital cables. I don't explain but it's true.


You can't explain exactly because it's not true.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2011 at 08:15
No - the ear is not the best measure of accurate digital signal transmission.
 
You do what Dean did. You can get a computer to look at the EXACT data as it is received. If there are no discrepancies, there are no discrepancies. Period. Done.
 
 
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2011 at 08:17
^^^ Incidentally: What a clever idea of the manufacturers of audiophile equipment: Whenever someone doesn't hear a difference, it must be because some small part of their system is ruining everything. So once you buy one expensive gadget, eventually you'll end up moving to another house because it might have better acoustics. A classical slippery slope, which you can best avoid by trusting your ears *before* you commit yourself to spending 5-6 figure amounts.

Edited by Mr ProgFreak - July 12 2011 at 08:17
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2011 at 10:25
Do they sell high-end silver-plated fully-insulated ear drums? That's what probably is making all the difference here.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2011 at 11:32
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Do they sell high-end silver-plated fully-insulated ear drums? That's what probably is making all the difference here.
.
I know that is made as a tongue in cheek comment.......BUT I wonder how far off that kind of " Solution" is....hitting 50 years of age i am beginning to find certain musical noises more obvious than others and would welcome some eardrum ' refurbishing"Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2011 at 12:34
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by Bronsonia Bronsonia wrote:

Also, do you think vinyl usually sounds better than CD or is that a myth too? 
 
Yes they do sound better..(there I said it !!! LOL) and yes to many here it is a myth, since there is no natural explanation why it is so....Wink
 
 
(I like vinyl)
Vinyl has its good points and its bad points. Many will wax lyrical (pun intended) on the good points, so here are a few of the bad points:
 
they wear out
they are susceptible to dust and scratches
they are prone to manufacturing defects
they have surface noise
they warp when they get warm
they distort if stored badly
the hole in the centre is not that accurate, leading to weird pitch fluctuations (and that is difficult to fix)
the channel separation is poor, seriously, it's very poor
bass response can be bad
dynamic range is adequate but not great
unless you've a good turntable, some of what you hear is the turntable itself.
 
do they sound different? - sure they do, is that better? - no, it's a matter of personal taste.
 
The mastering and eq for vinyl is different to CD - for vinyl they have to limit the dynamic range and bass response to avoid having big grooves so they can squeeze 20 minutes of music into one side of a 12" platter (this is part of the reason why 12" singles sound better than 12" albums or 7" singles) - CDs do not have that restriction but do have other limitations that requires different mastering and EQ settings, so the same album will sound different, not better, different. Some people equate this difference to good and bad or better and worse, citing the CD as being harsh and brittle and other such sharp, edgy words that you would associate with nasty digital square waves... basically, it's pseudo-psychological word association and little else, CDs do not sound like any of those things, if anything they are less trebbly than a vinyl so therefore should be less harsh because they are not recorded with pre-emphasis to suppress the bass frequencies.
 
For me, I love vinyl because I like that style of mastering even if it isn't "fidelity", but then I love CD because I really like the huge dynamic range and the wonderful sound staging you get from having an unlimited channel separation.
 
But that's just me. Other people think differently.
 
I like this and agree pretty much. I am very "progressive" in my listening styles and media, as I have a love for CD's and digital media also.
My appreciation of vinyl goes deeper than just "its cool!". I just feel it brings me closer to how the artists back then actually felt the music sounded best and yes a lot of it is the experience of vinyl spinning on my turntable...I think its great. To me its a constant search for that "better sounding" LP, rather than what most feel is the pinnacle of the "best sound" available in the form of a CD or digital file....your search is over Cry....to me there is no arguement.
 
Correct, the vinyl mfg process, quality back in the 60's and 70's was pretty bad.....But with the better technology of remastering today and the use of some better vinyl, thicker pressings and weight 180-200g...my search continues, that is a good thing!
 
I don't have the best turntable or the best cartridge or the best amp or speakers available (although I am working on that). But boy ohh boy, when I play some of my re-issues or a well made remastered 180g re-issue it is a different sound almost all the time on the same sound system. I think the CD will sound the same all the time forever and ever..and ever...and ever LOL....kinda boring to me...But again that's just me!
 
To me there is no arguement when I insert my CD or plug my Zune device into my home system and listen to Genesis Selling England By the Pound, it sounds amazing!. But it does not take me back to 1973 when the album first came out, to do that I MUST spin the vinyl and follow along with the lyrics holding the album sleeve......for the millionth time! (well I have not listened that many times....but a lot)
 
Cheers!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2011 at 12:43

I'm wondering, with so many home recorders out there now, if an artist would consider releasing and selling an entire multitrack process just so people can play with it.

How much fun would it be to take a Devin Townsend song and see just what he did and twiddle with the levels and such?
 
It seems to me that would bring me closer to the music and the artist than worrying about vinyl vs. flac.
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2011 at 12:57
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

I'm wondering, with so many home recorders out there now, if an artist would consider releasing and selling an entire multitrack process just so people can play with it.

How much fun would it be to take a Devin Townsend song and see just what he did and twiddle with the levels and such?
 
It seems to me that would bring me closer to the music and the artist than worrying about vinyl vs. flac.




Big smile


Edited by Mr ProgFreak - July 12 2011 at 12:59
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2011 at 13:00
Interesting...not sure those are the songs I'd choose but obviously someone beat me to the idea.
 
I thought lyrics like that first song were gone with the AquaNet.
 
 


Edited by Negoba - July 12 2011 at 13:05
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2011 at 13:14
Whatever an AquaNet is ... Question
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2011 at 13:16
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:


"Why is there any sound degradation ? it all depends on signal quality. In USB-audio the computer sends the data to the USB-DAC in datapackets.
If the DAC receives error/missing packets there is only a very small timeframe during what the DAC can tell the computer to re-send the packets.
If this timeframe is passed, the music is played without these packets and this is degrading the soundquality. USB-Audio transfer is a completely different thing as USB-data transfer. If eg. a USB-harddisk receives bad packets, the disk asks the computer to resend until the missing/damaged packets are arrived or if the USB cable is bad
they reducing the transfer-speed.



Ferrite
Ferrite rings/beads have to be avoided, as they affecting the highs. Because they filter in same frequency areas as the transmitted USB-audio data.

USB signal quality
Just because it is a USB-signal, it is not automatically resistant against signal-alteration due to different influences! The trivial argument: that is digital, so 0 or 1, yes or no, there can nothing be wrong, is a statement in general only made by users who have no own experience in developing digital- or data-technology.
The development of best USB-cables requires appropriate measuring equipment, where signal-problems can be detected and on construction level and proper material selection nearly be eliminated.
Even here: the ear is also a development tool.


USB Signal Measurements
If we find the time, we will publish here some screenshots and measurement protocols of USB-signals. Professional USB-developers will explain the results in an understandable manner. We will compare and analyse standard USB-cables with AQVOX USB-cables.


To be honest: for our experience, the sonic differences between USB2.0 cables can be huge when it comes to audiophile standards. The AQVOX USB cable sounds very open, transprent and natural, without any harshness. Our customers can go sure, that the AQVOX highend USB cable is made of the very best materials, provides maximum soundquality and exceeds the USB2.0 design specifications. A good hifi set will reveal the advantages of a good USB connection. The sound improves over the complete frequency bandwidth and in all aspects.
Just try it ! "

Source:

http://www.aqvox.de/cable.html
Oh my, this is embarrassing in the nth degree - I'm amazed and disappointed that anyone can write this stuff, let alone use it to advertise their product. I'm not sure where to begin, or if I should even be wasting my energy attempting or bothering to. I see from the responses so far no one has really been taken in by this, so perhaps I should stfu.
 
However Evil Smile
 
Just one thing (aside from all the glaringly obvious things) that rankles is this statement:
"In USB-audio the computer sends the data to the USB-DAC in datapackets.  If the DAC receives error/missing packets there is only a very small timeframe during what the DAC can tell the computer to re-send the packets."
...when you are talking of USB 2.0 data rates in the order of 480Mbs then yes, you can safely say that small time-frames are involved, but since the digitally encoded audio data stream only requires data at 1.4Mbs then this is all relative and in relative terms one audio packet only requires 1/340th of the total available "bandwidth" (note: this NOT audio bandwidth). That time-frame is small to us mortals, but to the USB interface it is a very long time-frame... so while this advertisement (and let's be sure to understand it is an advertisement and not a technical paper) is making a true statement, it is being very economical with that truth and being horribly misleading in what it is saying.
 
 


Edited by Dean - July 12 2011 at 13:17
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2011 at 13:20
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Whatever an AquaNet is ... Question
 
Favorite hairspray from the 80's.
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2011 at 13:28
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:


"Why is there any sound degradation ? it all depends on signal quality. In USB-audio the computer sends the data to the USB-DAC in datapackets.
If the DAC receives error/missing packets there is only a very small timeframe during what the DAC can tell the computer to re-send the packets.
If this timeframe is passed, the music is played without these packets and this is degrading the soundquality. USB-Audio transfer is a completely different thing as USB-data transfer. If eg. a USB-harddisk receives bad packets, the disk asks the computer to resend until the missing/damaged packets are arrived or if the USB cable is bad
they reducing the transfer-speed.



Ferrite
Ferrite rings/beads have to be avoided, as they affecting the highs. Because they filter in same frequency areas as the transmitted USB-audio data.

USB signal quality
Just because it is a USB-signal, it is not automatically resistant against signal-alteration due to different influences! The trivial argument: that is digital, so 0 or 1, yes or no, there can nothing be wrong, is a statement in general only made by users who have no own experience in developing digital- or data-technology.
The development of best USB-cables requires appropriate measuring equipment, where signal-problems can be detected and on construction level and proper material selection nearly be eliminated.
Even here: the ear is also a development tool.


USB Signal Measurements
If we find the time, we will publish here some screenshots and measurement protocols of USB-signals. Professional USB-developers will explain the results in an understandable manner. We will compare and analyse standard USB-cables with AQVOX USB-cables.


To be honest: for our experience, the sonic differences between USB2.0 cables can be huge when it comes to audiophile standards. The AQVOX USB cable sounds very open, transprent and natural, without any harshness. Our customers can go sure, that the AQVOX highend USB cable is made of the very best materials, provides maximum soundquality and exceeds the USB2.0 design specifications. A good hifi set will reveal the advantages of a good USB connection. The sound improves over the complete frequency bandwidth and in all aspects.
Just try it ! "

Source:

http://www.aqvox.de/cable.html
Oh my, this is embarrassing in the nth degree - I'm amazed and disappointed that anyone can write this stuff, let alone use it to advertise their product. I'm not sure where to begin, or if I should even be wasting my energy attempting or bothering to. I see from the responses so far no one has really been taken in by this, so perhaps I should stfu.
 
However Evil Smile
 
Just one thing (aside from all the glaringly obvious things) that rankles is this statement:
"In USB-audio the computer sends the data to the USB-DAC in datapackets.  If the DAC receives error/missing packets there is only a very small timeframe during what the DAC can tell the computer to re-send the packets."
...when you are talking of USB 2.0 data rates in the order of 480Mbs then yes, you can safely say that small time-frames are involved, but since the digitally encoded audio data stream only requires data at 1.4Mbs then this is all relative and in relative terms one audio packet only requires 1/340th of the total available "bandwidth" (note: this NOT audio bandwidth). That time-frame is small to us mortals, but to the USB interface it is a very long time-frame... so while this advertisement (and let's be sure to understand it is an advertisement and not a technical paper) is making a true statement, it is being very economical with that truth and being horribly misleading in what it is saying.
 
 
But Dean...... If it pushes walls its good right??
 
(sorry my bad......I should have refrained
Embarrassed
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2011 at 15:41
Some more explanations about digital cables...


http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/digitalcables_e.html

Edited by oliverstoned - July 12 2011 at 15:41
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2011 at 16:01
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

Some more explanations about digital cables...


http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/digitalcables_e.html


Oh yay!  Another article claiming group delay across the audio band is somehow audibly perceptible!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2011 at 16:06
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

Some more explanations about digital cables...


http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/digitalcables_e.html


Oh yay!  Another article claiming group delay across the audio band is somehow audibly perceptible!
 
Your avatar can.... So there..nahhh LOL
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