Theism vs. Atheism ... will it ever be settled? |
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The T
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: July 21 2010 at 14:13 | ||
^That last one sounds more reasonable...
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
Posted: July 21 2010 at 14:15 | ||
He believes he's making mockery of our faith, but he isn't, because he's signing a piece of bread, being that before the consecration it's only bread.
I ate a lot of this in school, the ones that had a defect were never consecrated and it's only bread. Iván |
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: July 21 2010 at 14:16 | ||
As far as I know these wafers were consecrated and then "abducted". That was the whole point of it all, to show that consecrated wafers are ... still just wafers.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
Posted: July 21 2010 at 14:28 | ||
And they're wafer thin... |
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 29 2005 Location: Lilliwaup, Wa. Status: Offline Points: 5319 |
Posted: July 21 2010 at 14:34 | ||
“The Mithraic Holy Father wore a red cap and garment and a ring, and carried a shepherd’s staff. The Head Christian adopted the same title and outfitted himself in the same manner. Christian priests, like Mithraic priests, became ‘Father’, despite Jesus’ specific proscription of the acceptance of such a title (Matthew 23:9). That Jesus had been repudiating, not the Mithraists with whom he was unfamiliar, but the Sanhedrin, whose President was styled Father, is hardly relevant. “Mithra’s bishops wore a mithra, or miter, as their badge of office. Christian bishops also adopted miters. Mithraists commemorated the sun-god’s ascension by eating a mizd, a sun-shaped bun embossed with the sword (cross) of Mithra. The hot cross bun and the mass were likewise adapted to Christianity. The Roman Catholic mizd/mass wafer continues to retain its sun-shape, although its Episcopal counterpart does not. “All Roman Emperors from Julius Caesar to Gratian had been pontifex maximus, high priest of the Roman gods. When Theodosius refused the title as incompatible with his status as a Christian, the Christian bishop of Rome picked it up. Magi, priests of Zarathustra, wore robes that featured the sword of Mithra. Identical robes are worn by Christian priests to this day.” |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
Posted: July 21 2010 at 14:59 | ||
Then it's worst, the lack of morality of stealing something that is holy for some of us and then signing it in a sign of approval.
I beliebve this says a lot of the morality of some atheists, I wouldn't steal a Torah or an Islamic symbol, because stealing is wrong.
Iván
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
Posted: July 21 2010 at 15:07 | ||
I believe you are staying in the external symbols rather than in the doctrine
The explanation of the term father
Haven't you ever caled your dad "Father"? I believe he is or was a man.
About the so called mithra:
Read it and believe it if you want, I'm too tired to explain.
Iván |
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: July 21 2010 at 15:38 | ||
Who said anything about stealing them? If I'm a Catholic and get such a wafer and then take it with me instead of eating it ... what would be wrong with that? And if you watched the second video you'd see that Matt got himself ordained over the internet and consecrated the wafers himself, live, during the show. |
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The T
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: July 21 2010 at 15:40 | ||
The first video lacked class Mike, it's evident.
I see the point though. As I was saying, even though it has a symbolic factor to it, the whole "drinking the blood" of a man sounds too.... much like my avatar to me
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Trademark
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 21 2006 Location: oHIo Status: Offline Points: 1009 |
Posted: July 21 2010 at 15:51 | ||
I think Dawkins must be related to that smug, self-satisfied b*****d who makes the vacuum cleaners. Ah well, there ARE some advantages to being one's own biggest fan.
I'm spearheading a move to do away with those awful dry communion wafers and replace them with sweet delicious Necco Wafers. Surprisingly, I'm not getting very far with it. Seriously, though when my kids were little we used to take a lot of long car rides and they always wanted Necco Wafers to snack on. My daughter recently admitted that she liked to pretend she was taking communion with Necco Wafers and 7-Up in the back seat of the car. Laughed about that for a long time. Being protestant, we can just tear up any old loaf of bread. |
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Icarium
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: March 21 2008 Location: Tigerstaden Status: Offline Points: 34076 |
Posted: July 21 2010 at 16:01 | ||
let just bring another guy to the debate, Bill Maher he so much funnier then Dawkins, and don't talk as much as Hitchens, im just saying that im not atheist (yet), I have a christian confirmation and stil part of the state church, and I think the Bible is an ethicly rich book of texts that are too important to be ignored just as any other ainchant texts, like Epic of Gilgamesh, the greek Epos, Heimskringla and the Viking Kings saga,
I like the principles of Jesus life and sacrefice, he was one man against the Roman Empire the most powerfull empire of the earth (that time), and he was brave to opose them, just like Ghandi oposed the British Empire, Martin Luther King opposed the you know what, and Nelson Mandela opposed the Apparteid. Edited by aginor - July 21 2010 at 16:12 |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
Posted: July 21 2010 at 16:05 | ||
Thanks Mike for making me see the second video and I'll say it's púre BS.
That guy is no Catholic Priest at all, he got ordained by a pseudo Church called "Universal Life Church", who's justification is this:
This guys can't ordain a Priest more than I can ordain you a Rabbi, as a fact a Priest requires of years of studies and be ordained by a Catholic Bishop, not by a businessman who is making a fraud, because he doedsn't have any authority.
Even more, no priest can be ordaiined by Internet, it's agaionst our beliefs.
It's such a scam that Detective Bruce Walstead apparently from the Franklin Park Police Department, got a certificate for his Dog Fuzzy who was ordained Minister And this guys made the certificate.
The fact is that people who are scammed by Internet, never become a Catholic Priest, a Jewish Rabi or a Protestant Pastor, so whatever acts they perform are just nothing.
So back to my first post. this is a piece on non consecrate bread that means nothing for us.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 21 2010 at 16:17 |
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: July 21 2010 at 16:45 | ||
^ Well, ordained or not, consecrated or not ... wafers they were, and wafers they remain. I'm relieved though that the video didn't totally upset you.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
Posted: July 21 2010 at 16:50 | ||
The video only reveals the ignorance of some people:
So no, it doesn't affect me, idiots don't bother me. Iván
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: July 21 2010 at 16:57 | ||
Nice video - and I like Maher's approach to the topic. BTW: Check out Bart Ehrman's book Jesus, Interrupted. He still believes in God , mind you - but especially in this book he analyzes the Bible and tries to reconstruct what we can know today about who Jesus was and what he actually did. I doubt that he was a hero, or even someone with a large following. At the time he most likely was one of many weird apocalyptical Jewish rabbies with about 20 followers. Nobody even mentions Jesus in his lifetime or in the decades that follow, except for the Christian writers of the Gospels. I don't think that he opposed the Romans - if anything, he opposed his fellow Jews at the temple. In any case, I doubt that if he existed at all, he did anything of historical importance. For all I know, he rose to become this mythical figure because the stories about his life were blown out of proportion by his followers, who kept them in circulation from mouth to mouth, for decades, and like in telephone game each person added some more details. |
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 08 2009 Status: Offline Points: 3281 |
Posted: July 21 2010 at 17:26 | ||
I'd love to see Bill Maher and John Stewart do something together.
The idea that a religious president is more willing to commit soldiers to war because if they die they'll go to heaven is an interesting one. Is that true do you think?
Similarly some blame religion for environmental degradation, in that if you believe in judgement day and heaven, obviously this world is an ephemeral place. What matter if it gets spoiled, we're going to heaven, right? Sincere belief in heavenly paradises may make people apathetic about preserving the planet. Your kids and their kids will go to heaven too, so who cares what conditions future generations face on Earth. Thoughts? |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
Posted: July 21 2010 at 17:41 | ||
Ask Fidel Castro, Stalin, Mao and Pöl Pot, atheist Presdents or Prime Ministers if they had any problem sending millions to dead no matter they believed their corpses will rotten and without heaven.
People talk nonsenses, history proves the contrary.
Iván
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Icarium
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: March 21 2008 Location: Tigerstaden Status: Offline Points: 34076 |
Posted: July 21 2010 at 17:53 | ||
well three of them are dead so it will be hard to ask them, Fidel is close to die or in some years ( maybe 3-4 mye prediction), but it would be nice to have a cup of cofee with him (and Maradona) about historie and such he is a part of it.
what a bout Robert Mugabe, personly i don't don't know what he beliefs,
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
Posted: July 21 2010 at 18:02 | ||
Use a ouji board
Now seriously, it's only a figure of speech we use in Sapanish, but the point is that all of them were atheists and had no problemn woith sending people to death and killing other millions.
Iván
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Icarium
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: March 21 2008 Location: Tigerstaden Status: Offline Points: 34076 |
Posted: July 21 2010 at 18:09 | ||
okey, well I am not a fan of those men they make me discusted (even if they were atheist, christian, muslims, hindus or even peacfull budhists). but I can indirectly thank Stalin for me (and my brother being alive, thanks to the hard reality, I am not that old though and I am not greatfull for what he's influence did to my grandmother and grandfather and their parents )
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