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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ivan_Melgar_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2007 at 17:21
Originally posted by tuxon tuxon wrote:

I don't see any reason why ratings without reviews should be deleted.
 
I pretty much favor it above reviews actually. Certainly for a birdseye view of what an individual likes I have enough on 40 ratings of bands and albums that I know.
 
unfortunatly most people prefer to wright 40 reviews and leave the other 500 albums they know outside because they don't have the time or the need to write that review.
 
that's 460 albums that could have some meaningfull information added if only we were more openminded towards rating without reviewing.
 
of course a review is better, but for the site it would be better if we don't have all that many members with one or 10 reviews, that's not enough information to judge whether or not the reviewer is a trustworthy source of information and comparable to ones taste.
 
but i'm preaching to myself here, so why bother.Ouch
 
I know ratings without reviews will not be prohibited but we should not encourage them IMHO for tghis reasons:
 
  1. They give fanboys or hateboys an easie chance to alter the charts, it's easier to take al Yes, Genesis or Tull albums and give them 5 stars, while if a person is forced to write a review it's harder to justify the low rating.
  2. We don't know if the person has in fact heard the album or just likes the band.
  3. Help visitors in nothing, a person who wabts to know something about Close to the Edge, gains nothing knowing I rated the album with 5 stars, it only means that I like it, but reading a review helps much more because the visitor knows why the reviewer gave the rating.
  4. Stars are a visual aid, the really important information is in the review.

I agree leave them because there are some honest persons that rate an album in an objective way, but we have to encourage the effort of the people who also make a review to support a rating.

I say give Rartings without reviews weight one (01), Ratings with Review weight three (03) and ratings with review from a collaborator weight five (05).
 
If I see an album with 5 dstars, I want to know why in hell the reviewer gave so high rating not because he/she likes the band or one star becausethat person wants SEBTP to be N° 1 instead of Close to the Edge.
 
Iván
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote erik neuteboom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2007 at 17:55

I am not a fan of progmetal, imagine I start a vicious crusade against bands like Dream Theater by rating their albums with one star, without a review: who is punishing my bad behaviour in that case? The same goes for bands like Radiohead, Magnum, Iron Maiden, shall I go for one star rating without reviews only to feel good because I have released my frustrations without any punishment/correction, it's possible at Prog Archives Ouch So any creap/jerk who wants to blow good bands without a review can go ahead, that's reality here on Prog Archives and I don't like that because it's a major blow to those reviewers who are serious in their efforts to write objective about bands!



Edited by erik neuteboom - May 16 2007 at 17:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yargh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2007 at 18:02
As long as the laughable system of weighting the scores of collaborators higher than that of other reviewers persists, it seems ridiculous to complain about ratings without reviews.  Ratings without reviews allows one to present his/her musical tastes in a quick and efficient manner -- so that when he/she does go about writing some reviews of those albums, his/her point of view can be ascertained by a prospective reader. 
 
People are getting way too hung up on an album's aggregate rating.  A simple solution is to get rid of them.  Post them once per year, or something.  I mean, who really cares?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote debrewguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2007 at 21:44
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by tuxon tuxon wrote:

I don't see any reason why ratings without reviews should be deleted.
 
I pretty much favor it above reviews actually. Certainly for a birdseye view of what an individual likes I have enough on 40 ratings of bands and albums that I know.
 
unfortunatly most people prefer to wright 40 reviews and leave the other 500 albums they know outside because they don't have the time or the need to write that review.
 
that's 460 albums that could have some meaningfull information added if only we were more openminded towards rating without reviewing.
 
of course a review is better, but for the site it would be better if we don't have all that many members with one or 10 reviews, that's not enough information to judge whether or not the reviewer is a trustworthy source of information and comparable to ones taste.
 
but i'm preaching to myself here, so why bother.Ouch
 
I know ratings without reviews will not be prohibited but we should not encourage them IMHO for tghis reasons:
 
  1. They give fanboys or hateboys an easie chance to alter the charts, it's easier to take al Yes, Genesis or Tull albums and give them 5 stars, while if a person is forced to write a review it's harder to justify the low rating.
  2. We don't know if the person has in fact heard the album or just likes the band.
  3. Help visitors in nothing, a person who wabts to know something about Close to the Edge, gains nothing knowing I rated the album with 5 stars, it only means that I like it, but reading a review helps much more because the visitor knows why the reviewer gave the rating.
  4. Stars are a visual aid, the really important information is in the review.

I agree leave them because there are some honest persons that rate an album in an objective way, but we have to encourage the effort of the people who also make a review to support a rating.

I say give Rartings without reviews weight one (01), Ratings with Review weight three (03) and ratings with review from a collaborator weight five (05).
 
If I see an album with 5 dstars, I want to know why in hell the reviewer gave so high rating not because he/she likes the band or one star becausethat person wants SEBTP to be N° 1 instead of Close to the Edge.
 
Iván
 
Iván

 I support your proposal re : different weighting for reviews. It would motivate most of us to do more than give an album a score, and give more value to ratings by our "experts".
As for the concern of people making a concerted & conscious effort to bring down or goose up an album's avg score, well, let's face it - it's an inherent fault in any community poll. Some will do that. Most don't.  But don't forget that you have a right to your opinion. IF one is so lacking in self esteem as to do either, they should at least know that one person's efforts make little difference in the total. I mean, can you really argue that the number one album is way much better than album number 15. The difference in total score must be pretty small. So unless your ego needs to see your fave album at number one, you likely can think of better thing to do with your time. We can all admit that there are highly rated albums that some of us strongly believe are overrated, and vice-versa. But I would be surprised that anyone here would love Gentle Giant any less because they don't have any albums in the top ten. OR love Genesis any more just because they have a few in the top 50.
That's the purpose of forums & polls. You can discuss in detail(or not) why you like or don't like an album. The lists are simply an imperfect reflection of group thinking, no more & no less.


Edited by debrewguy - May 16 2007 at 21:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tuxon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2007 at 23:41
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by tuxon tuxon wrote:

I don't see any reason why ratings without reviews should be deleted.
 
I pretty much favor it above reviews actually. Certainly for a birdseye view of what an individual likes I have enough on 40 ratings of bands and albums that I know.
 
unfortunatly most people prefer to wright 40 reviews and leave the other 500 albums they know outside because they don't have the time or the need to write that review.
 
that's 460 albums that could have some meaningfull information added if only we were more openminded towards rating without reviewing.
 
of course a review is better, but for the site it would be better if we don't have all that many members with one or 10 reviews, that's not enough information to judge whether or not the reviewer is a trustworthy source of information and comparable to ones taste.
 
but i'm preaching to myself here, so why bother.Ouch
 
I know ratings without reviews will not be prohibited but we should not encourage them IMHO for tghis reasons:
 
  1. They give fanboys or hateboys an easie chance to alter the charts, it's easier to take al Yes, Genesis or Tull albums and give them 5 stars, while if a person is forced to write a review it's harder to justify the low rating.

100000 million aspects have not been taken into account, if you can't think of eleven you shouldn't even partake in the discussion (honestly it took me more than 30 seconds to find 10, so I might be on a limb here, though while witing this I have come to 32 reasons why this objection is ridiculous) ( totally honest i can't think of any reason, but that's because I totally think there should be no such arguments, and I can give arguments like assuming peopple intend wrong, but that's already 20 arguments when you twist the words a little around the possible perceptions)

  1. We don't know if the person has in fact heard the album or just likes the band.

Confused do I even have to explain where this agument fails to even hit space..

  1. Help visitors in nothing, a person who wabts to know something about Close to the Edge, gains nothing knowing I rated the album with 5 stars, it only means that I like it, but reading a review helps much more because the visitor knows why the reviewer gave the rating.

should I really give excamples of what it means when I give an album a 5 star rating, or when somebody else gives the same album a 1 star rating, how much imagination does one need to distinguish my taste from the taste of Oliverstoned (sorry Oliver choose you for most people will think our tastes are far apart (doesn't reflect on your taste which is impeccable))

  1. Stars are a visual aid, the really important information is in the review.

truth there, a good review will provide at least info which helps explain the rating and with any luck it will say something meaningfull about the album.

I agree leave them because there are some honest persons that rate an album in an objective way, but we have to encourage the effort of the people who also make a review to support a rating.

 
Can't agree more, you've already accepted these ratings will stay, so why not join me and try to give them a possitive meaning,
 
I say give Ratings without reviews weight one (01), Ratings with Review weight three (03) and ratings with review from a collaborator weight five (05)
that's pretty logical, a rating without review should carry some weight, a review should carry double or tripple that weight and a collaborator rating should carry triipple or quadrupple the weight (rating ot wth review)
 
If I see an album with 5 dstars, I want to know why in hell the reviewer gave so high rating not because he/she likes the band or one star becausethat person wants SEBTP to be N° 1 instead of Close to the Edge.
 
and that's were the other ratings come in handy, it will provide us with a general profile of the reviewer, and with some mathematical magic one can determine whether a rating is within the expected parameter of the reviewer is, or whether the reviewer is deliberatly falsifying his profile, lots of mathematics, some magic and one has a prety decent website.
 
 
Iván
 
Iván
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2007 at 16:42
Originally posted by yargh yargh wrote:

As long as the laughable system of weighting the scores of collaborators higher than that of other reviewers persists, it seems ridiculous to complain about ratings without reviews.  Ratings without reviews allows one to present his/her musical tastes in a quick and efficient manner -- so that when he/she does go about writing some reviews of those albums, his/her point of view can be ascertained by a prospective reader. 
 
People are getting way too hung up on an album's aggregate rating.  A simple solution is to get rid of them.  Post them once per year, or something.  I mean, who really cares?
 
Eh Yargh,
 
long time no read!!!
 
I agree with those rankings getting way too much attentionfrom everyone (or almmost).
 
But when you're a teenager, you like those top lists, you study them and almost memorize them. I used to love those radio top 1000 albums inthe 70's
 
Today, I couldn't care less.
 
As for the weighing factor, I only patially  appreciate it, but it's the best way to moderate unreal overall album averages
 
 
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
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as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snow Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2007 at 17:06
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by yargh yargh wrote:

As long as the laughable system of weighting the scores of collaborators higher than that of other reviewers persists, it seems ridiculous to complain about ratings without reviews.  Ratings without reviews allows one to present his/her musical tastes in a quick and efficient manner -- so that when he/she does go about writing some reviews of those albums, his/her point of view can be ascertained by a prospective reader. 
 
People are getting way too hung up on an album's aggregate rating.  A simple solution is to get rid of them.  Post them once per year, or something.  I mean, who really cares?
 
Eh Yargh,
 
long time no read!!!
 
I agree with those rankings getting way too much attentionfrom everyone (or almmost).
 
But when you're a teenager, you like those top lists, you study them and almost memorize them. I used to love those radio top 1000 albums inthe 70's
 
Today, I couldn't care less.
 
As for the weighing factor, I only patially  appreciate it, but it's the best way to moderate unreal overall album averages
 
 
 
Well I'm no teen but I like lists. Its not an age thing I believe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote debrewguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2007 at 17:09
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by yargh yargh wrote:

As long as the laughable system of weighting the scores of collaborators higher than that of other reviewers persists, it seems ridiculous to complain about ratings without reviews.  Ratings without reviews allows one to present his/her musical tastes in a quick and efficient manner -- so that when he/she does go about writing some reviews of those albums, his/her point of view can be ascertained by a prospective reader. 
 
People are getting way too hung up on an album's aggregate rating.  A simple solution is to get rid of them.  Post them once per year, or something.  I mean, who really cares?
 
Eh Yargh,
 
long time no read!!!
 
I agree with those rankings getting way too much attentionfrom everyone (or almmost).
 
But when you're a teenager, you like those top lists, you study them and almost memorize them. I used to love those radio top 1000 albums inthe 70's
 
Today, I couldn't care less.
 
As for the weighing factor, I only patially  appreciate it, but it's the best way to moderate unreal overall album averages
 
 
 
Well I'm no teen but I like lists. Its not an age thing I believe.

 I think sometimes it becomes an ego thing. As in - the great groups rule the top ten; of course they're my favourites, I only listen to 'GOOD" stuff.
It's fun to disagree & debate, but hardly anything to get upset over... except for the omission of Klaatu from 2 of the top spots Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snow Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2007 at 17:11
Originally posted by debrewguy debrewguy wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by yargh yargh wrote:

As long as the laughable system of weighting the scores of collaborators higher than that of other reviewers persists, it seems ridiculous to complain about ratings without reviews.  Ratings without reviews allows one to present his/her musical tastes in a quick and efficient manner -- so that when he/she does go about writing some reviews of those albums, his/her point of view can be ascertained by a prospective reader. 
 
People are getting way too hung up on an album's aggregate rating.  A simple solution is to get rid of them.  Post them once per year, or something.  I mean, who really cares?
 
Eh Yargh,
 
long time no read!!!
 
I agree with those rankings getting way too much attentionfrom everyone (or almmost).
 
But when you're a teenager, you like those top lists, you study them and almost memorize them. I used to love those radio top 1000 albums inthe 70's
 
Today, I couldn't care less.
 
As for the weighing factor, I only patially  appreciate it, but it's the best way to moderate unreal overall album averages
 
 
 
Well I'm no teen but I like lists. Its not an age thing I believe.

 I think sometimes it becomes an ego thing. As in - the great groups rule the top ten; of course they're my favourites, I only listen to 'GOOD" stuff.
It's fun to disagree & debate, but hardly anything to get upset over... except for the omission of Klaatu from 2 of the top spots Wink
 
Nothing to do with Ego for me......its just interesting to see which is most popular for each year/genre or whatever.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote debrewguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2007 at 17:52
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by debrewguy debrewguy wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by yargh yargh wrote:

As long as the laughable system of weighting the scores of collaborators higher than that of other reviewers persists, it seems ridiculous to complain about ratings without reviews.  Ratings without reviews allows one to present his/her musical tastes in a quick and efficient manner -- so that when he/she does go about writing some reviews of those albums, his/her point of view can be ascertained by a prospective reader. 
 
People are getting way too hung up on an album's aggregate rating.  A simple solution is to get rid of them.  Post them once per year, or something.  I mean, who really cares?
 
Eh Yargh,
 
long time no read!!!
 
I agree with those rankings getting way too much attentionfrom everyone (or almmost).
 
But when you're a teenager, you like those top lists, you study them and almost memorize them. I used to love those radio top 1000 albums inthe 70's
 
Today, I couldn't care less.
 
As for the weighing factor, I only patially  appreciate it, but it's the best way to moderate unreal overall album averages
 
 
 
Well I'm no teen but I like lists. Its not an age thing I believe.

 I think sometimes it becomes an ego thing. As in - the great groups rule the top ten; of course they're my favourites, I only listen to 'GOOD" stuff.
It's fun to disagree & debate, but hardly anything to get upset over... except for the omission of Klaatu from 2 of the top spots Wink
 
Nothing to do with Ego for me......its just interesting to see which is most popular for each year/genre or whatever.

Ah, there we have it, the most appropriate word - popular. I wonder if re-wording the top so & so lists would make it less irritating to some people ... But then, I suppose some would then begin the argument that some are more "popular" than others because they're less proggy ... Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote debrewguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2007 at 17:57
I just thought of the perfect way to determine the top of "genre" lists. Me & the T split the site's bands in two & exercise our god like talents to help others know once & for all what's what. And that finally means Klaatu & Ange will reign supreme as they deserve to. I mean, if I get the A to L listed artists. If not, then PFM & Rush get their just desserts. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2007 at 19:36
Originally posted by debrewguy debrewguy wrote:

I just thought of the perfect way to determine the top of "genre" lists. Me & the T split the site's bands in two & exercise our god like talents to help others know once & for all what's what. And that finally means Klaatu & Ange will reign supreme as they deserve to. I mean, if I get the A to L listed artists. If not, then PFM & Rush get their just desserts. Smile
 
I Couldn't agree more. Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote debrewguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2007 at 21:37
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by debrewguy debrewguy wrote:

I just thought of the perfect way to determine the top of "genre" lists. Me & the T split the site's bands in two & exercise our god like talents to help others know once & for all what's what. And that finally means Klaatu & Ange will reign supreme as they deserve to. I mean, if I get the A to L listed artists. If not, then PFM & Rush get their just desserts. Smile
 
I Couldn't agree more. Tongue

OK, so now I just have to do like that SnakePlisken guy did with his four most recent Rush 5 star reviews. Use the same paragraph, cut & paste PA member's names one by one, then wait for them to agree & claim that everyone agrees with me.
I am so smart I am so smart ... S M R T... doh !
Big%20smileBig%20smileBig%20smile
P.S. The main condition stands. If I get A to L, Klaatu & Ange go to the top. If I get M to Z, then PFM & Rush. Other than that , I'm flexible.

Big%20smileBig%20smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2007 at 00:34
If I get A to M, there's not much question about which bands would go straight to the top.... (any of you really have to wonder?)... So maybe for the interest of fairness, I'll accept N to Z....Big%20smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progismylife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2007 at 02:06
^You'll put Kayo Dot at the top?













Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2007 at 14:01

Originally posted by progismylife progismylife wrote:

^You'll put Kayo Dot at the top?



Wink

Of course!

Straight to the top of the trash can, that is...Big%20smileLOL (just kidding...Am I? Yes! Am I? Big%20smile)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billbuckner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2007 at 16:36
Pink Floyd a blues band? You kidding?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2007 at 16:51
I thought about this a while and I can't name a single Blues song by Pink Floyd.LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kotro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2007 at 18:02
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

I thought about this a while and I can't name a single Blues song by Pink Floyd.LOL
 
From the top of my head:
 
-More Blues
-Two Bar Blues
-Seamus
-Mademoiselle Knobs
-Childhood's End
-Money
-Shine On You Crazy Diamond part 3-5
 
But calling them a blues band is just way off-target... Even though I believe blues CAN be progressive. 
 
Bigger on the inside.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Certif1ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2007 at 01:27
^Mademoiselle Nobs and Seamus are the same song, and Money isn't strictly a blues song - it started out as one, but evolved, just as the Floyd started out as a blues band.
 
The reviews aren't a place for such a discussion - or the below discussion about which bands should or should not be in the archives (as Rule 5 states!):
 
"If we allow blues bands to enter the prog realm then we need to make room for Hendrix's "Electric Lady Land' and Santana's "Abraxas". Each of those, IMO, MUCH better than WYWH. The musicianship on those two FAR EXCEEDS anything on WYWH. Heck, while we're at it, why not let Miles Davis into the mix as well! Wanna talk about progressive! Get the picture? :-)

But, I think I get it now....As long as the band/artist is British, or European(take Eloy, another blues band, PF clone) then they can be categorized as prog! Is that it?! It sure seems that way to me. For PF to be in the top five and no Hendrix or Santana seems kinda strange to me.
"
 


Edited by Certif1ed - May 19 2007 at 01:28
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