| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
Triceratopsoil 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 03 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 18016
|
 Posted: November 14 2010 at 17:30 |
 Snow Dog wrote:
Why is he having a go at me? |
he doesn't like your rose/poppy
|
 |
Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10678
|
Posted: November 14 2010 at 17:33 |
|
pre-emptive strike?
|
|
Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
|
Posted: November 14 2010 at 17:35 |
|
SD: He's talking about the incident with the noodles.
|
|
moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18063
|
Posted: November 15 2010 at 16:27 |
Hi,
Btw .. thanks Toddler ... made this old man cry a bit ... I try hard to make an "addition" to the information, rather than simply troll around a thread. In general, there are very few threads where I post just for the fun of it like everyone else. If someone, does not appreciate it, or care to have enough inner drive to have a little more understanding and learning, in the end, it is themselves that they are hurting, not me. And ... my name is not Jesus to try and save them, either! (hehehe ... couldn't help it!)
Back to the thread.
I am not a musician at all. I barely play my bass and keyboard. However, I can create pieces of music and do poetry over them easily enough, not for all of my 400 poems, but I can create new poetry once I can get the mood running.
That said, there are a lot of musicians I run around with, and they have not "heard" or "seen" nearly one quarter of all the music I know and have been with for a long time, and sometimes, trying to explain to them what can be done differently in different parts of a song, is almost an insult to their intelligence ... which to me shows how much they are comfortable and know "music" beyond notes and chords and the ability to play them next to a metronome -- classroom style! AND ... most rock music is like that, and has very little in it that goes beyond the realm of "music" ... into the "unknown" of feelings and expression.
All in all, it is a good question, but appreciation of music has nothing to do with anything else ... except one thing ... "people" ... and their ability to hear/listen to things and flow with it ... of course, in this case most "fans" fail, since their "preferences" tend to close down many other options in "music".
This is a specially hard question in a consumerist society, because numbers tend to be the definition of good and bad, and thus the difference between music and musician has a tendency to disappear. I would almost (not quite) say that many rap artists are not musicians at all ... but they have an excellent sense of timing ... which is very different ... and not all music is about "time".
|
|
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
|
|
ferush
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 26 2006
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 363
|
Posted: November 15 2010 at 19:50 |
|
People that have sensitivity and also enjoy and respect music.
|
|
Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
|
Posted: November 15 2010 at 20:25 |
I do. The rest of you are just posers. 
Edited by Slartibartfast - December 13 2010 at 19:26
|
|
harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989
|
Posted: November 16 2010 at 01:18 |
|
Aaaaaaarrrrggghhhh, WHAT is that avatar Slarti???
|
|
uduwudu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 17 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 2601
|
Posted: November 16 2010 at 04:58 |
Who enjoys prog more? You guys do. I just put on Zep 2 and the rest of the world has become dust... ...actually what I wanted to say is that except for all here I enjoy prog the most.  Now if only Asia could use some of the posts here as the basis for song lyrics. Comedy prog is very necessary. Oh I have seen people dance to Thick As A Brick. I was agog and askance, Most dangerous and ironic moment in prog. Me listening to CTTE on a Walkman while being bussed over the Colorado Rockies many years ago. The bus driver looked like he wanted to throw me out and a long way down.
|
|
Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
|
Posted: November 16 2010 at 17:50 |
harmonium.ro wrote:
Aaaaaaarrrrggghhhh, WHAT is that avatar Slarti???
|
Coultergeist I think I'm going to do substitutes for all the various holidays. Next up. What am I going to put in for Thanksgiving? Maybe one of those rabid South Park turkeys...
Edited by Slartibartfast - December 13 2010 at 19:26
|
|
progpositivity
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 15 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 262
|
Posted: November 17 2010 at 16:06 |
Musicians are (generally) better equipped to ascertain and thus appreciate excellent musicianship - at least on the instruments they play. This often leads to music enjoyment. Most musicians learned how to play an instrument because of their enjoyment of music in the first place.
But musicians do not always have an "advantage" over non-musicians when it comes to music enjoyment.
I once heard an interview in which Jeff Beck was "burned out". He stated that he did not really enjoy listening to music anymore. He could listen to a record and tell whether it was "good" or not - whether it had high quality musicianship, or whether the production was effective, whether the songwriting achieved its goals, etc... But none of that did not mean he enjoyed hearing it. I'm sure this was just a phase he went through. But it does illustrate that there is a difference between being able to appreciate music and enjoying the music.
Non musicians get to enjoy a certain magical wonder of the end product that is easier to capture when one does not know the "nuts and bolts" of the craft.
Edited by progpositivity - November 17 2010 at 17:27
|
|
Positively the best Prog and Fusion 24/7!
http://www.progpositivity.com
|
|
progpositivity
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 15 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 262
|
Posted: November 17 2010 at 16:20 |
I may be wrong on this but I think (in general) that young teenagers' minds are wired to enjoy music more than the older people.
First, there are often intense or at least conflicting emotions stirring in the young teenager's mind as they struggle to make sense of the world and to find their place within it. This is fertile territory for music to make a strong "connection". In this regard, older people may discover that music speaks to them more deeply during times of a major emotional event, whether that be a time of crisis, of suffering or even of joy such as a wedding or birth of a son or daughter.
Second, the young listener is hearing musical inter-relationships for the first time. Things sound so NEW to their ears. (The same or similar musical ideas may have been done countless times before but they have not heard them so they are new to them.)
This is evidenced by the general observation that - as most people enter their 20's and 30's, their intense passion for music moderates and usually even fades. One could argue that they enjoy hearing the "oldies" they grew up with because those songs stir their memory of how much they loved that song when they were young. To some extent, they are enjoying the memories associated with that song as much as - or more than - the actual musical elements of the song itself. Even the extent to which they enjoy the musical elements they are connecting with the part of their brain that first recognized some of the musical ideas and textures communicated in the classic song.
Most general music fans don't have the desire to invest more time and effort into appreciating more complex and subtle musical territory. With most of the readily obvious music-buttons already "pushed" countless times, they tend to turn their attention in other directions.
Now - of course - there are many older music listeners who "connect" with music much more deeply than younger listeners. But just looking at the most common experience in the population at large, I tend to think the younger listeners enjoy music more because most listeners aren't "into it" enough to invest the time and energy to enjoy too much beyond the "low hanging fruit" from the tree of music so to speak.
or the eldest , the flat people , or the guys using any substances ! or is it simply a state of mind that can be gifted to anyone !!?
|
|
Positively the best Prog and Fusion 24/7!
http://www.progpositivity.com
|
|
progpositivity
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 15 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 262
|
Posted: November 17 2010 at 16:35 |
By "flat" it appears we are saying the users that are not "high" on some form of drug...
Flat people are clearly in a better situation to notice and appreciate form in compositions. Individuals who are "high" on a substance are much more likely to be distracted or to have a shorter attention span.
High individuals are presumably very "in tune" with some mood, emotion or feeling. I would think they would be very receptive to mood components of music - and to perhaps be astounded by things that not nearly as unusual, as surprising, nor ar hilarious as they might appear to them. To what extent they are truly enjoying the music - and to what extent they are enjoying the experience of being under the influence of the drug gets hard to dilineate here.
For example, someone high on THC will often find something quite humorous and then laugh uncontrollably. Yet the event which struck them as funny was really rather mundane. The same event prompts no laughter from them later. Indeed, the only really "funny" think when they look back is the fact that they found this event funny in the first place. Was the event 'funny'? Or were they feeling "funny" due to the drug?
So the question I'm posing is... "How much is the high person enjoying the music - and how much are they enjoying the substance"? I don't doubt there is a synergistic relationship there but if someone needs a substance in order to enjoy the music, then they are enjoying the "drugs+music" Combo Meal Deal and not the music itself IMO.
Obviously I'm on the side of "flat" listener. I actually prefer not to calling them "flat". Perhaps the drugged listener could be called a "fuzzy" listener and the non-drugged listener called a "focused" listener because they listen with greater clarity of mind! The non-drugged listener can still experience great highs and lows of emotion without being high or low on a drug!
|
|
Positively the best Prog and Fusion 24/7!
http://www.progpositivity.com
|
|
akajazzman
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 13 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 124
|
Posted: November 20 2010 at 16:11 |
Progpositivity, execellent posts. Lets hear it for the focused listener. Back in the day, I always hated that some people thought you had to be high to “get” Pink Floyd. Give me a break.
You make some interesting points on younger listeners vs older listeners. I agree with your many astute observations. It reminds me of when I was a young listener making those connections to music for the first time. It bothered me to see older folks who had little or no use for music. Worse, I’d learn that many of these folks had once really been into music, but then “grew up.” EVEN WORSE, was watching my friends put music away as they grew up.
I swore that would never happen to me. Music was too damn important. Listening to it, discovering it, playing an instrument, etc. Now I’m almost 50, and I’m still crankin’ Prog, metal and punk in my office at work. (It helps that I’m the CEO of the corporation (which I attribute, in part, to my Rock n Roll mindset)). And for me its not just about replaying my old Jethro Tull albums, I’m playing the Decemberists as I type, and just finished the playing Anathema’s latest album, with Mars Volta and Radiohead in the queue!
As many of us older dudes on ProgArchives can attest, there’s plenty of exceptions to the rule. Still, sadly, I think you’ve defined the general rule!
|
|
Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
|
Posted: November 20 2010 at 16:51 |
progpositivity wrote:
For example, someone high on THC will often find something quite humorous and then laugh uncontrollably. |
Really? I have to say that the ability to write eloquently doesn't necessarily mean that you know what you are talking about.
Edited by Slartibartfast - November 20 2010 at 16:58
|
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
|
|
resurrection
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 08 2010
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 254
|
Posted: November 21 2010 at 02:48 |
Manuel wrote:
I would say people who like to listen to music, instead of dancing to it. Not that dancing music is bad, but to appreciate progressive music, you must really listen to it. |
I quite like this definition; it's a good starting point. I'd also say that because of the self-indulgence, musicians often enjoy this genre more than the audience. I also don't like the connection that's similar to many jazz audiences, ie, made up of people who don't necessarily know anything about music, but who like to associate themselves with prog because they think it places them in a superior elite, and let's them look down other forms of music that they perceive as 'inferior'. Too much elitism devalues true criticism, which should be a valuable contribution, not an excuse for sl*g.ing someone else off. We all have our opinions. The challenge is to praise something that you don't personally like, personal opinion is not the same as a judgement of what constitutes quality.
|
|
trackstoni
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 23 2008
Location: Lebanon
Status: Offline
Points: 934
|
Posted: November 21 2010 at 03:34 |
|
a brief conclusion about this post , and why i did it at the first place ! there wasn't any kind of music controlling my emotions when i was 14 , the first double album i've got was for the Beatles . it was ok for me until certain limits . in 1970 , i bought Supertramp ( first album ) to use it in a special dancing party ! but it wasn't a dancing stuff . but for God sake i've paid 12$ for this album and can't give it back . this specific album was my intro to prog.rock music . Fruupp ( future legends ) Jonesy ( keepin' up & no alternative ) etc . from 1970 till 1981 i had about 5000 vinyl records ( all prog . except for some good stuff ( blues , jazz & classical ) all my albums was converted to mp3's now , and i'm so glad that during my trips as a pilot( specially to Europe ) i was able to discover new bands & new dimensions .
i know how to play guitar & keyboard , but i don't , cause when i play i don't enjoy the music i like ! now i'm 57 , i still enjoy all my records , and play em all accordingly .
at the end , what i want to say < i believe it's a state of mind if you really enjoy prog. music , musician or not , flat or stoned , it's the same ! i simply enjoy progressive , even if sometimes before , i wasn't able to understand the lyrics , long ago before the net >
|
|
Tracking Tracks of Rock
|
|
trackstoni
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 23 2008
Location: Lebanon
Status: Offline
Points: 934
|
Posted: December 12 2010 at 01:29 |
|
|
|
Tracking Tracks of Rock
|
|
TODDLER
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: August 28 2009
Location: Vineland, N.J.
Status: Offline
Points: 3126
|
Posted: December 12 2010 at 01:59 |
Edited by TODDLER - December 12 2010 at 02:07
|
|
moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18063
|
Posted: December 13 2010 at 17:56 |
progpositivity wrote:
Musicians are (generally) better equipped to ascertain and thus appreciate excellent musicianship - at least on the instruments they play. This often leads to music enjoyment. Most musicians learned how to play an instrument because of their enjoyment of music in the first place. .... |
I would disagree with this statement -- unless you quantify/qualify the experience.
In general, the musician's way of relating to music is wayyyyyyy too different from the one of a fan, or many others. The musician might be better tuned to the chords, notes and ways to play the pieces they are doing, because it is their living ... but for you and I ... we're not musicians, and don't have to be to enjoy music ... what you are saying is something like this ... you have to be a doctor to run a hospital ... and you don't!
I might also disagree with the musicians learning to play an instrument part ... many of us took classes when we were kids and learned it that way, and one day decided ... I don't like that cheesy stuff and am going to play rock music ... and that applies to nearly 75% of all the musicians I have ever been around ... btw ... which is an endless number including being in a house living with a band for several years.
| ... I once heard an interview in which Jeff Beck was "burned out". He stated that he did not really enjoy listening to music anymore. He could listen to a record and tell whether it was "good" or not - whether it had high quality musicianship, or whether the production was effective, whether the songwriting achieved its goals, etc... But none of that did not mean he enjoyed hearing it. I'm sure this was just a phase he went through. But it does illustrate that there is a difference between being able to appreciate music and enjoying the music. |
If I remember correctly, Jeff is almost deaf ... so if he can't hear the music ... I would imagine that it could be boring and him burned out ... but it does tell you that there are things that he can feel and hear really well ... regardless of the notes and all that!
Probably says a lot about the music ... Beethoven's best was written while he was deaf, or at least almost deaf! ... and we still don't know what all the "feeling" is all about! ... let me tell you ... it has nothing to do with notes or chords!
|
|
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
|
|
moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18063
|
Posted: December 13 2010 at 18:02 |
progpositivity wrote:
I may be wrong on this but I think (in general) that young teenagers' minds are wired to enjoy music more than the older people.
|
Prog ... you're missing the point I think.
The youngsters do not know anything about notes or the music theory and they simply flow with the music parts that take them with ... it matters not which ... could be a melody, could be an instrument ... just about anything ...
Youngsters also tend to get more ignored by us oldsters because we always think that we know music and they don't ... for all we know -- which generally is not much anyway -- I can tell you the kid can feel a lot more than we adults allow ourselves to do so with.
You're making it sound like we can only enjoy music if we know CMaj79 or something like it ... that's not what created music at all ... the "scores" and "notation" came waayaayayyyyyyyyyy after the music and the feeling was born, which would defeat your argument really quick.
I'm not sure that we should indoctrinate children, like you are suggesting! ... and now you know why there is "progressive" music, a lot of which had to fight that very syndromme to get themselves heard ... and it is a testament to many of those musicians that they did not quit ... instead of bringing out what they heard and saw ...
The vision comes first in creativity ... not the notes ... EVER!
|
|
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
|
|
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.
/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Who enjoys Progressive music more !?
