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The Quiet One 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
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 Posted: July 24 2010 at 17:43 |
 Logan wrote:
The Quiet One wrote:
The first Prog album was the first album ever released, which I don't know what is it, but I do know that it is Prog for being the first album. |
It was a stone-age record when they still put the rock, literally, in rock and roll. Okay, at least there are certain archaeological records which are not really pertinent, but no LPs of which I am aware; however, some might surmise that certain stone age rock bands pressed records using wooly mammoth dung. It's a hypothesis, anyway, and not a good one.
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Hercules
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 14 2007
Location: Near York UK
Status: Offline
Points: 7024
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Posted: July 24 2010 at 18:28 |
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ITCOTCK may have been the album that popularised prog, but in no way was it the first true prog album.
For me, that honour goes to one of Procul Harum's first two, with Shine on Brightly being my choice as the debut isn't quite progressive enough. It was released two full years before ITCOTCK.
Edited by Hercules - July 24 2010 at 18:28
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A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life.
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Rabid
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 20 2008
Location: Bridge of Knows
Status: Offline
Points: 512
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Posted: July 24 2010 at 20:16 |
aprusso wrote:
THE BEACH BOYS - Pet Sounds (early 1966) |
People SERIOUSLY overlook this album, in my opinion. You can hear influences from it in 99% of West Coast bands, from that period, from Zappa, to the Monkees, to Jefferson Airplane, to the Grateful Dead.
The list goes on.
Brian Wilson - true genius.
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"...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..."
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Rabid
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 20 2008
Location: Bridge of Knows
Status: Offline
Points: 512
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Posted: July 24 2010 at 21:25 |
akajazzman wrote:
You guys crack me up. Elvis! Dylan J I see both the humor and truth in that stuff. But I do appreciate seeing more serious answers. I’m going to buy some of these suggestions to see if I can argue that ITCOTKC isn’t the answer.
Logan, you’re spot on with “What the first true prog album is really does depend on one's working prog definition.”
I personally, have a broader view of Prog than my friend. The Stack of CDs that I keep in my “Progressive Rock Collection” is far more expansive than the strict paradigm I’m putting on it for the sake of this discussion. In it I keep early Soft Machine, Pipers, Procol, early Zappa, Supertramp, Kate Bush, Tortoise, Neu, Anathema, Traffic, Moody’s and many other bands that don’t fall within the strict parameters my friend puts on Prog. In fact, that leads to a separate argument I’ve had with him about the definition of Prog. For example, he vehemently denies that Pink Floyd was never “Prog” because they weren’t virtuosic enough. Which I think is pure crap.
Still, within his definition of Prog Rock, ITCOTCK was the first. Although I don’t agree with that strict of a parameter on the label “Prog Rock”, labels aside, he does have a point that there is a style and sound to ITCOTCK that I’ve not heard in other albums prior to its release. Again, labels aside, I do hear a clean break or jump forward between ITCOTCK and prior releases. Again "you know it when you hear it" Gentle Giant, Yes, Genesis, ELP, King Crimson style rock that is post- psych, arty or jazzy. Composed Rock, different sections or even songs strung together, played with virtuosity, with some long instrumental passages and long trade-offs and some improv breaks.
I need to find the closest album to “that” that came out before ITCOTCK. Thanks to those that gave me some great suggestions, I’ll check them out (and keep them coming). And I also appreciate others who agree with my friend that ITCOTCK is really the first of “that” style. All the other perspectives and jokes are interesting too. Thanks. |
People seem determined to classify prog as a definitive style of music. ie Genesis, Yes, Jethro Tull, etc.
Let's not forget that the term progressive was used by music journalists to define an idea of anything that was'nt considered mainstream, but rocked, nonetheless. What REALLY cracks ME up is quotes like 'Genesis used to be prog but they are'nt now'. Possibly because when they formed, they was considered 'less-mainstream' than most of the other pop bands around. Based on that rationale, you can say that Stravinsky was more prog than Holstz, Holstz was more prog than Beethoven, Beethoven was more prog than Bach. ad infinitum.
Genesis, Yes, King Crimson, Jethro Tull, etc never labelled themselves as progressive bands....music journalists did, so most peoples perception of prog seems to be dependant on what a journalist from the 1960s thinks.
I think it's time to drop all this 'labelling' crap. Do we REALLY need someone to tell us what prog is or is'nt? At the end of the day, you either like it, or you do'nt, but any way you look at it, it's all music. You won't really notice a style and sound of King Crimson in any band other than King Crimson, prior to the release of INCOTCK. This is a fact of life.....you get innovators.....then you get imitators.
Which 'strict parameters' does your friend specifically mean?
ps: Composed Rock, different sections or even songs strung together, played with virtuosity, with some long instrumental passages and long trade-offs and some improv breaks. Prog Rock!
So you DO mean the Moody Blues, then?
Edited by Rabid - July 24 2010 at 21:48
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"...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..."
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akajazzman
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 13 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 124
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Posted: July 24 2010 at 22:31 |
Rabid, by the way, I'm a bigger Beach Boys/Brian Wilson fan than I am any other artist other than Pink Floyd. I saw Wilson in concert twice last year. And even asked PA to include Smile as an entry into PA. If Smile had been released in 1967 like it should have, it would have been a progressive classic for sure! Pet Sounds was amazing as well, albiet not as far out as Smile, but just as great (or greater).
Rabid, on labeling I just don't find it as off putting as some, I mean this site is called "Progressive Archives" after all. And artists of course are going to hate being labeled, but I view it as their job to genre hop if they don't like the label.
StiIl actually am sorry I brought up my friends strict label of "Prog Rock", because I don't put the same parameters on "my" label of Prog Rock. What I'm more interested in is finding an album that had similar characteristics as ITCOKC. Lets face it ITCOKC was hugely influential. Its a classic. Regardless of its label, sooo many people on this site view it as a first of its kind.
So what is its kind? Genesis and Yes admit to being very influenced by KC after the KC album came out, and you can hear the influence in their music. I don't have the words to articulate what "that is" but I can hear it. As much as I dig the Moody Blues, I don't hear the fast Rock virtuosity that I hear on say "21 Century S. Man." This is in no way to cut at the Moody Blues, but to my ears they don't jam as a tight prog band the way Yes does on Fragile or the way ELP did or Genesis on Foxtrot or Lamb. King Crimson brought a new level of instrumental interplay to the game. Between McDonald, Fripp, Bruford, and Lake they were mixing it up big time (granted, most of their first album is rather slow/mid tempo) in a certain way that I haven't heard before. Nor do the Moody's have as long and winding compositions. Still, I agree, the Moody's somewhat influenced KC's sound.
Even the great Soft Machine, changed their style after the first King Crimson album, and the first cut on Soft Machine's Third album has a long jam that is clearly influenced by 21 C. S. Man.
I start feeling like "am I nuts about this point that KC clearly created some new standard, or drew a new line in the sand" But then I realize that I'm hardly alone, as so many others on this board hear the same thing I"m talking about.
Again, I go back to this East of Eden album that was mentioned, but after hours of searching I think the release date is impossible to find. I sort of suspect that it came after October 1969, the third song seems a tad too lyrically influenced by KC.
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Ronnie Pilgrim
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 09 2010
Location: The South of TX
Status: Offline
Points: 771
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Posted: July 24 2010 at 22:55 |
Rabid wrote:
People seem determined to classify prog as a definitive style of music. ie Genesis, Yes, Jethro Tull, etc.
Let's not forget that the term progressive was used by music journalists to define an idea of anything that was'nt considered mainstream, but rocked, nonetheless. |
With all due respect, then what's the point of this site? The very concept you challenge is the basis for all of the discussions and reviews here. If we don't struggle with these classifications, we might as well be an anything-other-than-mainstream music site. Just take a look at the top 250 prog albums and there you have it. In The Court of the Crimson King, by the general consensus of the membership, is probably the first prog album. From what I can discern, it has the blend of symphonic rock, jazz rock, folk rock, and blues rock that seem to be recurring components of what is considered prog. But this is up for discussion, and that's why I love it here. 
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paganinio
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 07 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1327
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Posted: July 24 2010 at 22:56 |
The Quiet One wrote:
The first Prog album was the first album ever released, which I don't know what is it, but I do know that it is Prog for being the first album. |
It's probably just some field recordings of street sounds and train noises?
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paganinio
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 07 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1327
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Posted: July 24 2010 at 22:59 |
Ronnie Pilgrim wrote:
Rabid wrote:
People seem determined to classify prog as a definitive style of music. ie Genesis, Yes, Jethro Tull, etc.
Let's not forget that the term progressive was used by music journalists to define an idea of anything that was'nt considered mainstream, but rocked, nonetheless. |
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No. That's called PUNK. Punk wasn't considered mainstream, but rocked.
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5154
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Posted: July 24 2010 at 23:36 |
I'm sorry I have no idea of the precise release date of East Of Eden's Mercator Projected.
However and in agreement with some other posters, depending on how much you strech your definition of "prog as in KC's ITCOTKC", I would argue that The Nice's "Ars Longa Vita Brevis" was the first prog-rock album in the sense we understand the term today. Even if admittedly it did not have anything comparable to "21st Century Schizoid Man" I think it had some relationship to "I Talk to the Wind", "Epitaph", "Moonchild" or "ITCOTKC" even if it was obviously much less guitar-rock-oriented (The Nice was a keyboard-oriented band while KC was more guitar oriented, which not necessarily but somehow puts The Nice in a more solid stand as "the genesis of prog", considering that prog would put keyboards on a much more prominent role than what they had been until then (apart from some orchestrations such as in the Moody Blues or The Beatles).
If "Ars Longa Vita Brevis" is not prog enough for you, and Mercator Projected turs out to be newer than ITCOTKC, then I'm afraid you have no escape...
Edited by Gerinski - August 08 2010 at 03:24
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Rabid
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 20 2008
Location: Bridge of Knows
Status: Offline
Points: 512
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Posted: July 24 2010 at 23:46 |
akajazzman wrote:
Rabid, by the way, I'm a bigger Beach Boys/Brian Wilson fan than I am any other artist other than Pink Floyd. I saw Wilson in concert twice last year. And even asked PA to include Smile as an entry into PA. If Smile had been released in 1967 like it should have, it would have been a progressive classic for sure! Pet Sounds was amazing as well, albiet not as far out as Smile, but just as great (or greater).
Rabid, on labeling I just don't find it as off putting as some, I mean this site is called "Progressive Archives" after all. And artists of course are going to hate being labeled, but I view it as their job to genre hop if they don't like the label.
StiIl actually am sorry I brought up my friends strict label of "Prog Rock", because I don't put the same parameters on "my" label of Prog Rock. What I'm more interested in is finding an album that had similar characteristics as ITCOKC. Lets face it ITCOKC was hugely influential. Its a classic. Regardless of its label, sooo many people on this site view it as a first of its kind.
So what is its kind? Genesis and Yes admit to being very influenced by KC after the KC album came out, and you can hear the influence in their music. I don't have the words to articulate what "that is" but I can hear it. As much as I dig the Moody Blues, I don't hear the fast Rock virtuosity that I hear on say "21 Century S. Man." This is in no way to cut at the Moody Blues, but to my ears they don't jam as a tight prog band the way Yes does on Fragile or the way ELP did or Genesis on Foxtrot or Lamb. King Crimson brought a new level of instrumental interplay to the game. Between McDonald, Fripp, Bruford, and Lake they were mixing it up big time (granted, most of their first album is rather slow/mid tempo) in a certain way that I haven't heard before. Nor do the Moody's have as long and winding compositions. Still, I agree, the Moody's somewhat influenced KC's sound.
Even the great Soft Machine, changed their style after the first King Crimson album, and the first cut on Soft Machine's Third album has a long jam that is clearly influenced by 21 C. S. Man.
I start feeling like "am I nuts about this point that KC clearly created some new standard, or drew a new line in the sand" But then I realize that I'm hardly alone, as so many others on this board hear the same thing I"m talking about.
Again, I go back to this East of Eden album that was mentioned, but after hours of searching I think the release date is impossible to find. I sort of suspect that it came after October 1969, the third song seems a tad too lyrically influenced by KC. |
But thats the paradox......... because KC got their own style together, and ITCOTCK was the first of its kind, they got labelled as progressive, in relation to other bands who were about at the same time, but not making the same sort of music. I don't think KC was any more progressive than the Moody Blues, I just think they sounded more like KC than the Moody Blues did. Lets not forget, too, that the Moody Blues started at a time when commercial success was more important than artistic integrity.
As far as I can see, the only new standard that KC created was the standard of sounding more like KC than anyone else. Any band that needs to change their style to deliberately sound like someone else can only be classified as imitators. KC were innovators......it's only natural that other bands were influenced by their style.
I've got an idea that 'that' is the sound of a Mellotron, new studio technology, and a radical producer.
Maybe ITCOTCK was the first album to demonstrate to record companies that you CAN maintain artistic integrity AND be commercially viable at the same time.
And Brian Wilson rocks !! 
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"...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..."
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Rabid
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 20 2008
Location: Bridge of Knows
Status: Offline
Points: 512
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Posted: July 24 2010 at 23:51 |
paganinio wrote:
Ronnie Pilgrim wrote:
Rabid wrote:
People seem determined to classify prog as a definitive style of music. ie Genesis, Yes, Jethro Tull, etc.
Let's not forget that the term progressive was used by music journalists to define an idea of anything that was'nt considered mainstream, but rocked, nonetheless. |
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No. That's called PUNK. Punk wasn't considered mainstream, but rocked. |
Punk sucked.  A clear slap-in-the-face for any serious musician.
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"...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..."
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Rabid
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 20 2008
Location: Bridge of Knows
Status: Offline
Points: 512
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Posted: July 25 2010 at 00:13 |
Ronnie Pilgrim wrote:
Rabid wrote:
People seem determined to classify prog as a definitive style of music. ie Genesis, Yes, Jethro Tull, etc.
Let's not forget that the term progressive was used by music journalists to define an idea of anything that was'nt considered mainstream, but rocked, nonetheless. |
With all due respect, then what's the point of this site? The very concept you challenge is the basis for all of the discussions and reviews here. If we don't struggle with these classifications, we might as well be an anything-other-than-mainstream music site. Just take a look at the top 250 prog albums and there you have it. In The Court of the Crimson King, by the general consensus of the membership, is probably the first prog album. From what I can discern, it has the blend of symphonic rock, jazz rock, folk rock, and blues rock that seem to be recurring components of what is considered prog. But this is up for discussion, and that's why I love it here. |
I'm in total agreement with you, but I think you've missed my point about 'labelling'.
What I meant was: I can't see the point of anyone asking for a definitive explanation of what the first prog album was, when 20,000 people have their own idea of what prog actually means to THEM. Obviously, you'll get 20,000 conflicting replies. If we could only establish a standard, things would be less confusing.
I'm not a great fan of genre-hopping, personally......life's too short, and there's too much music to be listened to.
But I guess life's like that. 
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"...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..."
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VanVanVan
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 756
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Posted: July 25 2010 at 00:27 |
paganinio wrote:
Ronnie Pilgrim wrote:
Rabid wrote:
People seem determined to classify prog as a definitive style of music. ie Genesis, Yes, Jethro Tull, etc.
Let's not forget that the term progressive was used by music journalists to define an idea of anything that was'nt considered mainstream, but rocked, nonetheless. |
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No. That's called PUNK. Punk wasn't considered mainstream, but rocked. |
Debatable.  
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"The meaning of life is to give life meaning."-Arjen Lucassen
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akajazzman
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 13 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 124
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Posted: July 25 2010 at 00:28 |
Gerinski says
"If "Ars Longa Vita Brevis" is not prog enough for you, and Mercator Projected turs out to be newer than ITCOTKC, then I'm afraid you have no escape..." LOL. You're probably right. But this whole discussion has given me ammo for my next go around with my friend. I think Nice do come rather close (he'll deny it it and call it "proto", but I can still try).
If the vocals in Nice were just ..."better" and if someone else in the band held a candle to Emerson... I guess what makes ITCOTKC such a compelling argument is that its pretty great, so its easier to stick a stake in the ground on it (although Moonchild gets boring for me).
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Rabid
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 20 2008
Location: Bridge of Knows
Status: Offline
Points: 512
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Posted: July 25 2010 at 00:31 |
VanVanVan wrote:
paganinio wrote:
Ronnie Pilgrim wrote:
Rabid wrote:
People seem determined to classify prog as a definitive style of music. ie Genesis, Yes, Jethro Tull, etc.
Let's not forget that the term progressive was used by music journalists to define an idea of anything that was'nt considered mainstream, but rocked, nonetheless. |
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No. That's called PUNK. Punk wasn't considered mainstream, but rocked. |
Debatable. |
What better place to debate than a forum? 
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"...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..."
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Rabid
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 20 2008
Location: Bridge of Knows
Status: Offline
Points: 512
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Posted: July 25 2010 at 01:04 |
cannon wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
You agree so much.,..you agreed twice!
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I sometimes take things a little too far. |
I disagree. 
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"...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..."
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Rabid
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 20 2008
Location: Bridge of Knows
Status: Offline
Points: 512
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Posted: July 25 2010 at 01:20 |
I've got the feeling that the first uses of the term progressive refers to the artiste(s). Are you saying that you cant have progressive rock songs?
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"...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..."
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Rabid
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 20 2008
Location: Bridge of Knows
Status: Offline
Points: 512
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Posted: July 25 2010 at 01:31 |
micky wrote:
oh that one is easy haha
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Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh !! 
Now ur talking !!!!
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"...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..."
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Rabid
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 20 2008
Location: Bridge of Knows
Status: Offline
Points: 512
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Posted: July 25 2010 at 01:50 |
The Truth wrote:
Bob Dylan's Highway 61 Revisited
Hey! It was progressive at the time! |
And THAT'S what counts.
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"...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..."
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65750
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Posted: July 25 2010 at 02:00 |
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with all respect to the King, I would cite the following breakthrough albums; Thoughts of Emerlist Davjack, Absolutely Free, Smiley Smile, Stand Up, and Trespass
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What was the first Prog Album?
