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crimson87 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 03 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 1818
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 Posted: June 14 2008 at 15:47 |
 Atavachron wrote:
^  true.. though I'll say if Kiss had never written a good pop tune ('Calling Dr Love' anyone?  ) they would not have been as successful, fire-breathing and costumes and all
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They wrote several good pop tunes , and to be honest GENE is right Thom Yorke is sooooo boring.
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
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Posted: June 14 2008 at 16:32 |
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: June 14 2008 at 16:38 |
There was a lot of great prog going on when KIZZ was at their prime. A little anecdote from high school, 9th grade if I recall, I was a big fan of the Dixie Dregs and one of my classmates was a big KISS fan. In science class he set up a beaker with shells in it, put in a stopper at the top and squirted hydrochloric acid down the tube. Fortunately he didn't burn his face off when the stuff squirted him. He was making fun of me at the time for being a Dregs fan, I ran in to him a year or so later in school and he had become a Dregs fan... Anyway, I love the Dixie Dregs and Radiohead. I don't care about or for KISS. Onward and Upward with the self promotion, Gene!
Edited by Slartibartfast - June 14 2008 at 16:40
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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salmacis
Forum Senior Member
Content Addition
Joined: April 10 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 3928
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Posted: June 14 2008 at 17:10 |
A very interesting debate, this- I'll throw in my two cents...
I guess I have an old-fashioned approach in that I tend to like some sort of presentation skill in rock concerts. I have an open mind as to how this is done- whether the performer establishes a rapport with the crowd (Elvis, The Beatles, Bruce Springsteen etc. did this) or whether they use special effects to try and add something to the music experience.
Part of the reason I love Genesis so much is because they managed to do both with Peter Gabriel and Phil Collins. Both frontmen always made some attempt to reach out to the crowd, whilst the stage show was amongst the most dazzling in rock- from Gabriel's bizarre costumes to the full-on Vari-lite spectacle (it has been claimed Genesis were the first to use the vari-lite). Generally, I think they managed to weld this presentation to the music as well- look at 'The Lamb...'. It was as much a visual experience as a musical one based on the (limited) footage I've seen, which was daring for the time. David Bowie managed to do exactly the same thing at his best, presenting a show which was as much a visual experience as a musical one. Queen's approach was different- there's less dramatics than Genesis or Bowie, but the pyrotechnics were used to entertain in conjunction with a flamboyant frontman. It still worked a treat IMHO.
Bands like Pink Floyd and, more latterly, Muse, don't tend to have that same rapport with a crowd IMHO, BUT they employ a spectacular stage set which was something to behold. However, there are an increasing amount of bands who do neither- particularly in the UK. From what I have seen of Radiohead, I will say that they don't seem to engage the crowd too much in either way IMHO. Led Zeppelin are an interesting case- at their best they were untouchable and Robert Plant was/is a great frontman, but their 30 minute solo spectaculars smack me as the ultimate in rock star self-indulgence which is why I am always shocked how they often avoid being criticised for it. I adore Zeppelin's music, but I can't abide those drawn out guitar/drum solos such as you see in 'The Song Remains The Same'. There is no real attempt to engage or even acknowledge the crowd in those moments IMHO.
I do think it is a requirement of a performer to acknowledge the audience. Whenever I watch coverage of festivals or charity concerts, I am always shocked at how poor UK bands are at this these days. Take 'Live Earth' last year- I'm not a fan, but I thought the Foo Fighters were such a breath of fresh air when they appeared there last year after the UK bands that looked incredibly awkward in a stadium situation as they really brought some energy to the thing. The 'indie rock' ethic of no frills is all very well, but these bands simply cannot cope when they are plunged into stadiums and get swallowed whole IMHO.
However, there is a downside to spectacle as well- I don't know what the spectacle ever really added to Kiss' music. I have a copy of 'Alive' and used to have some of their other stuff, but they have always smacked me as the epitome of the 'style over substance' act. I remember saying to a friend that whilst bands like Kiss and Motley Crue are very well known amongst the general public, how many of those people could even name one song they have recorded? This also happened with Rick Wakeman's 'King Arthur On Ice' spectacle and David Bowie's 'Glass Spider tour'- they do little to help the music and if anything, reduced the artists to a laughing stock. In the case of the Glass Spider tour, it has a certain car-crash value in that it's such a wreck you can't help but watch it!
I do think it's hard to achieve a good balance of 'show' and 'music'...but artists should at least try IMHO.
Edited by salmacis - June 14 2008 at 17:12
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The Pessimist
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 13 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 3834
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Posted: June 14 2008 at 17:45 |
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I think Radiohead suck, so i support Gene in his opinions.
I saw them on Jools Holland's late show, and everyone watching with me agreed they sounded utterly sh*t. I saw some of their earlier gigs after OK Computer came out and i still wasn't impressed, they're not even remotely progressive. The only real progressive material i've heard from them are the songs sampled on this site (Paranoid Android, Everything Is In The Right Place), but after buying three of their supposed best albums (OK Comp, Kid A, In Rainbows), the only thing i really liked was the packaging for In Rainbows! If i ever went to one of their concerts, i would probably want to kill myself, honestly: what is their appeal? I'm cool with creating a dark atmosphere - in fact that's my favourite kind of music: VDGG, Opeth, Tool, TMV - but there is no need to be repetitive and dull with it. I just think they are unskilled and underdeveloped and overly overated. I much prefer Muse, as said above, they put on a damn good show, they have direction and they still create a pretty damn dark atmosphere (Butterflies and Hurricanes, New Born). There's my opinions. Gene rocks and i agree with him.
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"Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."
Arnold Schoenberg
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: June 14 2008 at 17:47 |
Gene Simmons insulting Radiohead is a little like a newt gnawing at your ankle. It doesn't really hurt but it feels a bit slimy afterwards. (borrowed and altered from Molly Ivins) 
Edited by Slartibartfast - June 14 2008 at 17:48
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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laplace
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 06 2005
Location: popupControl();
Status: Offline
Points: 7606
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Posted: June 14 2008 at 17:48 |
kibble_alex wrote:
I think Radiohead suck, so i support Gene in his opinions.I saw them on Jools Holland's late show, and everyone watching with me agreed they sounded utterly sh*t. I saw some of their earlier gigs after OK Computer came out and i still wasn't impressed, they're not even remotely progressive. The only real progressive material i've heard from them are the songs sampled on this site (Paranoid Android, Everything Is In The Right Place), but after buying three of their supposed best albums (OK Comp, Kid A, In Rainbows), the only thing i really liked was the packaging for In Rainbows! If i ever went to one of their concerts, i would probably want to kill myself, honestly: what is their appeal? I'm cool with creating a dark atmosphere - in fact that's my favourite kind of music: VDGG, Opeth, Tool, TMV - but there is no need to be repetitive and dull with it. I just think they are unskilled and underdeveloped and overly overated. I much prefer Muse, as said above, they put on a damn good show, they have direction and they still create a pretty damn dark atmosphere (Butterflies and Hurricanes, New Born). There's my opinions. Gene rocks and i agree with him.
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I never say this because I'm nice, considerate and long-form when it comes to representing my opinions. However:
FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL FAILFAILFAILFAILFAIL ;P
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listen
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2007
Location: Portland OR
Status: Offline
Points: 352
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Posted: June 14 2008 at 17:50 |
1800iareyay wrote:
listen wrote:
Different types of music call for different kinds of atmosphere. Do classical orchestras call for explosions and visuals? |
The problem with this statement is that the second sentence is rendered invalid by the first. No, orchestras don't have laser light shows, but classical isn't rock. I hate to get all Lester Bangs on prog rock (his ultimate nemesis), but rock is supposed to be exciting. Even the soft prog I listen to stimulates me in some way.
What? You make no sense. My statement is about all genres. There is no "supposed". There is no invalidity in my statement, only in how you thoughtlessly interpreted it.
| I think it's presumptuous and naive to say that all music shows should be expressive in the same way, and it ignores that there is a whole range of human expression that can come through music, not all of which involve "blow[ing] sh*t up". |
But the only human expression that will come through a static rock show is arrogance and superiority.
I think this statement is naive and way overly categorical. Your example of KC and Jazz invalidates your own point because I never said (and the Gene Simmons quote didn't either) that I was talking explicitly about "rock" (which is an extremely wide categorization, mind you).
As for your claim about visuals, the three greatest live performers of all time are James Brown, Bruce Springsteen, and The Who. None have fancy visuals and only The Who ever blew stuff up, and that was never in a theatrical way. What they DID do was play with passion and raw energy that they could ride the vibe of a crowd and manipulate it, make it rise and fall with each vocal undulation or each frantic dance move. When a band just walks on stage and plays their studio material by rote (KC might not jump around, but by God they improv like jazzmen, who I identify them with anyway), I don't get worked up for that band. I also hate the school of thought first founded by Zeppelin (a band that I've never understood the live praise for since even their killer live albums show a mass level of disconnect. Yes the playing is great, beyond great, but they have so much macho superiority that video of them leaves me cold) that the band should act like the crowd isn't even there. For the amount of money it costs, you damn well better acknowledge them. |
I agree. But my basic point is that not all music (even all rock music) calls for raw, aggressive energy like Kiss. I think people should be more open-minded and less categorical in their statements/opinions.
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listen
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2007
Location: Portland OR
Status: Offline
Points: 352
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Posted: June 14 2008 at 17:56 |
*frinspar* wrote:
listen wrote:
Different types of music call for different kinds of atmosphere. Do classical orchestras call for explosions and visuals? I think it's presumptuous and naive to say that all music shows should be expressive in the same way, and it ignores that there is a whole range of human expression that can come through music, not all of which involve "blow[ing] sh*t up". |
That's not very fair. I think there is a lot of room for options other than "explosions" and "no explosions". |
Thats my point.
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b_olariu
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 02 2007
Location: Romania
Status: Offline
Points: 5532
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Posted: June 15 2008 at 04:21 |
moreitsythanyou wrote:
When the worst band ever insults the best band ever, all you have to do is just turn the other cheek and let those talentless hacks humor themselves.  |
Come on, if Radiohead is the best band ever than i'm Elvis Prestley, is a good band but nothing more in my opinion.  About what Simmons says, he's opinion anyway and i saw some Radiohead shows and is damn boring, sorry to deseppoint fans but is what i think, is not among my fav bands.
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b_olariu
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 02 2007
Location: Romania
Status: Offline
Points: 5532
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Posted: June 15 2008 at 04:33 |
kibble_alex wrote:
I think Radiohead suck, so i support Gene in his opinions.
I saw them on Jools Holland's late show, and everyone watching with me agreed they sounded utterly sh*t. I saw some of their earlier gigs after OK Computer came out and i still wasn't impressed, they're not even remotely progressive. The only real progressive material i've heard from them are the songs sampled on this site (Paranoid Android, Everything Is In The Right Place), but after buying three of their supposed best albums (OK Comp, Kid A, In Rainbows), the only thing i really liked was the packaging for In Rainbows! If i ever went to one of their concerts, i would probably want to kill myself, honestly: what is their appeal? I'm cool with creating a dark atmosphere - in fact that's my favourite kind of music: VDGG, Opeth, Tool, TMV - but there is no need to be repetitive and dull with it. I just think they are unskilled and underdeveloped and overly overated. I much prefer Muse, as said above, they put on a damn good show, they have direction and they still create a pretty damn dark atmosphere (Butterflies and Hurricanes, New Born). There's my opinions. Gene rocks and i agree with him.
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Well said pal 
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Visitor13
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: February 02 2005
Location: Poland
Status: Offline
Points: 4702
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Posted: June 15 2008 at 04:51 |
So what is Simmons suggesting, should Radiohead shows include tricycle-riding Sabretooths, the members of DT hanging upside down juggling wine bottles and a real UFO landing at the very end? This is supposed a Radiohead concert, not a Wagner opera! (Mind you, I'd pay to see this... about one euro) I'm not that much into Radiohead, but I agree with Mike, a concert is about music, not about visual BS. Now, IMO a band should have some sort of musical idea to make their concert more than just the live equivalent of a "Best Of" CD + promo of a new one. Extending the songs, improvising, whatever. Kibble_Alex - just you wait until Certified sees your post, just you wait
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Online
Points: 21133
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Posted: June 15 2008 at 05:54 |
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^ very well put. The live show should be about the music first and foremost, but of course it's cool if the band can add to the sonic experience. I just don't like if the "acting" interferes with the musical performance.
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The Pessimist
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 13 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 3834
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Posted: June 15 2008 at 08:13 |
Visitor13 wrote:
So what is Simmons suggesting, should Radiohead shows include tricycle-riding Sabretooths, the members of DT hanging upside down juggling wine bottles and a real UFO landing at the very end? This is supposed a Radiohead concert, not a Wagner opera!
(Mind you, I'd pay to see this... about one euro)
I'm not that much into Radiohead, but I agree with Mike, a concert is about music, not about visual BS. Now, IMO a band should have some sort of musical idea to make their concert more than just the live equivalent of a "Best Of" CD + promo of a new one. Extending the songs, improvising, whatever.
Kibble_Alex - just you wait until Certified sees your post, just you wait
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I can't wait either But seriously, you should all stop listening to f**king Radiohead and put some good modern bands in your CD players like Porcupine Tree, TMV, Tool or Opeth...
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"Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."
Arnold Schoenberg
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Repner
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 16 2007
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 203
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Posted: June 15 2008 at 10:52 |
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I've never been to a Radiohead show myself, but a friend that did told me it was the most boring gig he'd ever been to. Thom didn't even speak to the audience the entire night..
And this is coming from someone that is really not a fan of Kiss
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: June 15 2008 at 11:33 |
Repner wrote:
I've never been to a Radiohead show myself, but a friend that did told me it was the most boring gig he'd ever been to. Thom didn't even speak to the audience the entire night..
And this is coming from someone that is really not a fan of Kiss
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If only he'd worn black and white makeup, platform shoes, and spit blood with a long tongue.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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cookieacquired
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 23 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 911
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Posted: June 15 2008 at 15:58 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
Repner wrote:
I've never been to a Radiohead show myself, but a friend that did told me it was the most boring gig he'd ever been to. Thom didn't even speak to the audience the entire night..
And this is coming from someone that is really not a fan of Kiss
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If only he'd worn black and white makeup, platform shoes, and spit blood with a long tongue.
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This is Thom Yorke, and now you can in stores buy the official Radiohead toothbrush, condom, or coffin. That's right be buried with your favorite rock idols. or radiohead action figures wow radiohead should sell out
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micky
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
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Points: 46833
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Posted: June 15 2008 at 16:11 |
cacho wrote:
micky wrote:
cacho wrote:
hahahahaha. EXCELLENT rules, someday when I grow up I'll aply them to all my concerts. Some clappies to Micky's 5 Law! 
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hahhaha.. exactly.... but not till you are 18 my son... otherwise I'd have to paddle your ass |
ohh..  I already wanted to aply it now!  hehe. |
well if you do.. and I am not trying to corrupt you... just keep you from making bigger mistakes A) go with 50year old biker chicks over the 20 year twits.. you'll come to forget the sagging and drooping after the experience of having to listen to a 20 year old assault your ears with speech afterwards B) Vodka works best... and pass on drugs... the contact high at good shows is enough C) ear plugs always work.... worked for me at the George Michael show I saw in '88. Falling asleep during the show gets you bonus points.. well from me at least... deduct points.. major points if you fall asleep at a show you take your girlfirend too.. a BAD move indeed D)bring a best buddy to bleed for you while you hide if it becomes necessary. That works well when you have insulted 2 biker dudes by telling them their woman are as ugly as their rides... E)make sure you have a copy of ELP's - Welcome Back My Friends to pass the time while sitting in Traffic
Edited by micky - June 15 2008 at 16:14
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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tardis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: Victoria, BC
Status: Offline
Points: 14378
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Posted: June 15 2008 at 16:24 |
Yeah baby, let's blow sh*t up!! Who gives a stuff about music quality? 
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: June 15 2008 at 16:26 |
tardis wrote:
Yeah baby, let's blow sh*t up!! Who gives a stuff about music quality?
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and you imply KISS is NOT about musical quality... ' I hope the four guys who make up the group, whose names don't matter, are putting money away for the future. The NEAR future, because KISS won't be around long' Seattle Daily Times May 27, 1974 what is quality... but for making music that people enjoy brother....
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Gene Simmons insults Radiohead
