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Cheesecakemouse View Drop Down

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Posted: October 06 2007 at 16:24

Well then we are at an impasse, I don't want any tensions here. Perhaps this thread has run its course and its downhill from now on. I'll be sensible and leave it to the admin to discuss.

Edited by Cheesecakemouse - October 06 2007 at 16:24

micky

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Posted: October 06 2007 at 16:25

Cheesecakemouse wrote:

Well then we are at an impasse, I don't want any tensions here. Perhaps this thread has run its course and its downhill from now on. I'll be sensible and leave it to the admin to discuss.

my point exactly... though I tried to express with emoticons...

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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: October 06 2007 at 17:46

Cheesecakemouse wrote:

Its not x why not y, its y is in when x hasn't been put in yet, like I said Sabbath sounds more proggy than Led Zep, Wishbone Ash etc. It would only sound likethe if x why not y argument if it was based on a band less proggy than these other bands, I'm saying Sabbath is more proggy

Have yoiu studied logics?

You are asking if Zep and Wishbone Ash who are less prog than Black Sabbath are here, then why not Black Sabbath..."It's the old if X then why not Y?"

Zep and Wishbone Ash are here because their cases has been studied individually by the Adm team and they decided IN EACH CASE to add each of those bands for their individual characteristics.

Black Sabbath is another universe, it must be studied alone and check it's merits, it has been done several times and been rejected several times.

Can't you hear the symphonic structure listen again, pure metal? last time I heard pure metal bands don't use orchestras and funk.

Orchestras and Funk don't mean Ptrog, James Last, Ray Conniff and Paul Muriat used Orchestras and were simple Muzak

A little too eclectic to be pure metal Wink

, a very blatant example of symphonic structure in their music is their first album, a 14 minute piece, a 10 minute piece all divided up into subsections,

A multi part epic dioesn't imply Prog either.

but the symphonic structure is everywhere in all their music, I'm really surprised you don't see it.

Please, explain the Symphonic structure you talk about, most Black Sabbath is Doom Metal, point

Geoff Downes and Trevor Horn played in Yes....Must we add The Buggles?

This only matters by the initial fact that they have strong prog elements, and reinforces it.

So you believe The "Video Killed the Radio Star" Buggles are Prog or have Prog tendencies? Please listen them.

Zep clones at the beginning -maybe but they still had other influences as well as the Who, Cream, and they had practically dropped their clone sound by their second album also some of 2112 has parts heavily influenced by Sabotage, also the sond Anthm olike a Sabbath one (albeit more tidy because of better musicianship), the song Bangkok sounds sabbathy, also many other s were influence such as Cygnus.
You can't tell me Rush only to Zep in their early days.

Even if they influenced a couple of Prog bands in their metal elements (not in the prog elements), doesn't justify to add them, they are not a sttrong force of influence in prog, ergo, they must not be here.

Check Allmusicguide.com, they mention Yes as a major influence on Sabbath, listen to the album Paranoid, very Crimsonesque in parts, just like Uriah Heeps Very 'Eavy, very 'Umble.

All music is one of the most unreliable sources of music when referring to Prog and even metal, I quoted the Metal Archives in my last post, they are experts in Metal and they consider Black Sabbath mainly Doom Metal

Buty I guide myself for my ears.

Last thing I heard prog does use elements of funk, just like Yes, I can hear Ozzy took some keys in his vocal delivery from Anderson, the first track on Technical Ecsatsy could have been done by Yes.

Yes, Prog sometimes blends funk elements into an already PROGRESSIVE ROCK STRUCTURE, in the case of Black Sabbath, they are adding Funk to Metal.

Again ececticsm is reinforced by the other factors, as I have mentioned earlier they had many Symphonic structure, their first album has extended tracks, a 14 minute piece and a 10 minute piece divided into many parts, Vol. 4, Sabbath Bloody Sabbath, Sabotage, Tech Ecs, Never Say Die.
Anyway you just said they were pure metal, and now your saying they're eclectic.

They are a metal band that added some other elements, there's not a single pure genre, Prog has a lot of Rock, Classical, sometimes Jazz, others Folk, etc, so do the other genres, Black Sabbath is a metal band that added other MAINSTRAM elements to their music.

I see no Yes in Black sabbath.

They impressed me because they sound so proggy. And yes they did cointribute to prog dramatically, both symphonic, canterbury and prog metal.

You have only heard them 15 days ago and you aklready affirm they influenced heavily Synmphonic and canterbury? Wow, which are your sources? Would love to check them.

Also I'm not a metal fan, nor do I wish to make this band a metal site, I'm saying the inner structure and mechnisms of their songwriting is strongly connected to prog, if they were based on folk, jazz, polka and they still had the symphonic structures and experiments I would them in. I'd say if Sabbath were more of a folk base they'd get in without trouble, just remember gain on a guitar and heavy sound does not make a band less prog related.

Neither makes them Prog Related. Their own official site taks aboout a HEAVY METAL BAND, also the Joe Sieglers Site for Black Sabbath,. you quote Allmusic, but not completely:

1969 in Birmingham, England

Years Active

1910	20	30	40	50	60	70	80	90	2000

Genre		Styles
Rock		Heavy Metal British Metal Album Roc

Not a single mention of Progressive Rock or Art Rock, not that I trust Allmusic too much, but if you quote them don't omit certain parts.

I stay in my point, this is not a Prog or Prog related band and shouldn't be added, IMO of course.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 06 2007 at 17:50

The T

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Posted: October 06 2007 at 19:14

Has anyone even paid attention to that thread that Raffaella started that clearly says: BREAKING NEWS, PROG RELATED IS NOT PROG?

Calm down people, if Black Sabbatth is added, we're not saying is prog... just that it has some relation to prog.. as many other bands here have....

In my view, BS has enough porg-related elements to warrant an inclusion here... that and the fact that most 90% of hard rock-metal bands on earth (including prog-metal) have been influenced by them in some way or the other....

paolo.beenees View Drop Down

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Posted: October 06 2007 at 19:28

I'd say yes... but not in the "arty" sense which is normally linked to prog. I'm still convinced there's a "prog period" for rock, and Black Sabbath were among the protagonist of the "great change" occuring between 1965-1975 (even if you can say that for many bands... prog rock is a real difficult concept!)

andu

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Posted: October 06 2007 at 21:05

I would like to see BS here on Prog-Related simply for the reason that people would then write reviews and there's nothing better than proggers' guidances into non-prog bands. It makes me see them in a different light, and learn new things about them. So it's pretty much selfish reason. Tongue

On the other hand, I don't think BS compares to Led Zeppelin (different fruits), as Zeppelin had quite some 100% prog songs (like White Summer, Dazed and Confused, Stairway To Heaven, The Battle of Evermore, Rain Song, No Quarter, Kashmir, In the Light, Achilles Last Stand, Carouselambra), while BS' contribution was more in the overall approach (I have yet to hear any BS 100% prog song, maybe I've missed them?)

jimmy_row

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Posted: October 06 2007 at 21:14

andu wrote:

I would like to see BS here on Prog-Related simply for the reason that people would then write reviews and there's nothing better than proggers' guidances into non-prog bands. It makes me see them in a different light, and learn new things about them. So it's pretty much selfish reason. Tongue

the only 100% prog song from BS IMO is Fairy's Wear Boots, but it isn't anywhere near Stairway to Heaven or Rain Song. I have to agree about the first part of your post...even as these reviews take away from the actual reason we're here, I like to read good reviews of The Who, Zeppelin, etc, the unfortunate side effect is that they take up a lot of room on the homepage; now if there was some way to keep them off the homepage, I would have absolutely no problem with all of the prog-related additions.

Signature Writers Guild on strike

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: October 07 2007 at 01:51

The T wrote:

Has anyone even paid attention to that thread that Raffaella started that clearly says: BREAKING NEWS, PROG RELATED IS NOT PROG?

I know it T, I wrote the Prog Related definition, but IMO BLACK SABBATH IS NOT EVEN PROG RELATED,

Focus in real band or maybe take them to Prog Metal, that's the only place where they remotely could go, but I'm sure they would hang you..

Focus in real Prog bands, PR is something EXCEPTIONAL, not a priority.

Iván

Sean Trane View Drop Down

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Posted: October 07 2007 at 05:43

The T wrote:

Has anyone even paid attention to that thread that Raffaella started that clearly says: BREAKING NEWS, PROG RELATED IS NOT PROG?

Calm down people, if Black Sabbatth is added, we're not saying is prog... just that it has some relation to prog.. as many other bands here have....

Peine perdue, mon cher ami!!

You're preaching in a desert

A crowded but hearing-impaired desert

Anyway, i's all up to the owners,anyway

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

Time Signature View Drop Down

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Posted: October 07 2007 at 05:50

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Focus in real Prog bands, PR is something EXCEPTIONAL, not a priority.

What's a real prog band?

Edited by Time Signature - October 07 2007 at 05:50

This user has left the PA fora, but will occasionally post reviews so as to support artists.

Raff

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Posted: October 07 2007 at 09:13

jimmy_row wrote:

the only 100% prog song from BS IMO is Fairy's Wear Boots, but it isn't anywhere near Stairway to Heaven or Rain Song. I have to agree about the first part of your post...even as these reviews take away from the actual reason we're here, I like to read good reviews of The Who, Zeppelin, etc, the unfortunate side effect is that they take up a lot of room on the homepage; now if there was some way to keep them off the homepage, I would have absolutely no problem with all of the prog-related additions.

I can see your point, but tell me one thing: do those reviews last forever on the homepage? Of course they don't - there is a spate of them for a couple of days, then everything dies down, as it usually happens in life. Keeping them off the homepage, as if they were lepers (to use Yukorin's definition) will not help the more obscure acts get more recognition, especially since their material is often very hard to get hold of.

I think the problem with PR is another, but I'd rather not get into it now. I don't want to be the one who cause that disruption I always point my finger at.

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: October 07 2007 at 12:49

Time Signature wrote:

What's a real prog band?

The bands that are added to a Propg sub-genre and not to Prog Related, in other words band that made a career in Progressive Rock, not the ones who people say influenced or were influenced by Prog without being Prog.

Iván

Easy Livin View Drop Down

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Posted: October 07 2007 at 14:47

Please see this thread

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=42240

Poll Question: Sould Sabbath be on the archives under prog related?
Poll Choice	Votes	Poll Statistics
Yes	22	[52.38%]
I've listened t many of their albums and I say No	17	[40.48%]
I would like them in but am unsure of if its worth it	3	[7.14%]
I havn't heard any of their mid 70s albums to say	0	[0.00%]
This topic is closed, no new votes accepted