Prog and Politics

Did this thread spiral out of control after I opened the Ayn Rand can of worms?? It was only two pages long last night when I logged of.

Good old politics. Reed may be a little outspoken but I have to agree with him on most things, apart from Briatin having a socialist government. When did that happen?? Last thing I knew we had a Conservative government dressed up in Labour entrails. Most people in Britain wouldn't subscribe to socialism because most people wouldn't even know what it is.

Hey guys, I love a flame war as much as the next person-but outspoken?

Consider this:

In Britain and America who backs the right-wing Conservative/Republican parties the most vocally and financially? Let me see.....big business and the very rich.

Why?

If you asked 1000 millionaires which party they supported, which would come out on top (probably about 75%-25%)?
Does that mean that the very rich have received some special wisdom that says "this system is best" or does it mean that they support the party who advocates the lowest taxes.

Very rich people do not rely on services to the same extent as poorer people, so they dont see why their money (in the form of taxation) should be used for something they dont need.

Going back to Paris Hilton-Ivan there are millions of people like her out there.They flounce around with daddy's or hubby's money,which they have done zilch to earn or deserve,flaunting their wealth in a sickening, disgusting manner.Where do you think they get this arrogance from? In public, daddy might seem like a reasoned, articulate pragmatist. In private he despises the average Joe on the street, for not buying enough of his goods,or using enough of his services and causing him to pay high taxes (although never his fair share!).

The only way to maintain the status quo is to get gullible middle-income (and even some low income) to obsess about taxes.The biggest trick the monied elite ever pulled was convincing the ordinary working man that taxes are evil.

Big business has to answer to it's shareholders. In fact it's priority is to make money for these people. Now,I know that within the system the world at large works, companies need the shareholders' cash to pay for expansion etc-I understand basic economics.However, taxation necessarily reduces profits, therefore big business is duty-bound to support which ever major party supports lower taxation.

In the UK the Conservatives (the right wing party) are continually attacking the Labour Party (Socialist-yes indeed  Blacksword) for public-spending.In fact it is the biggest issue between the two parties outside of taxation-although, obviously the two are linked.

Why?

Because public-spending necessitates higher taxation.Now I ask you, what is this money being spent on? The National health Service,Social Security (yesI know, it breeds loafers and scroungers, you are going to say) Education etc etc. This money is NOT being wasted no matter what you think, compared to what else money is used for in this world.

And even if there was a lot of waste and inneficiency, I know where my sentiments lie.

An extra hospital bed or a new Prada handbag for Paris-c'mon guys!

Reed Lover wrote: Hey guys, I love a flame war as much as the next person-but outspoken? Consider this: In Britain and America who backs the right-wing Conservative/Republican parties the most vocally and financially? Let me see.....big business and the very rich. Why? If you asked 1000 millionaires which party they supported, which would come out on top (probably about 75%-25%)? Does that mean that the very rich have received some special wisdom that says "this system is best" or does it mean that they support the party who advocates the lowest taxes. Very rich people do not rely on services to the same extent as poorer people, so they dont see why their money (in the form of taxation) should be used for something they dont need. Going back to Paris Hilton-Ivan there are millions of people like her out there.They flounce around with daddy's or hubby's money,which they have done zilch to earn or deserve,flaunting their wealth in a sickening, disgusting manner.Where do you think they get this arrogance from? In public, daddy might seem like a reasoned, articulate pragmatist. In private he despises the average Joe on the street, for not buying enough of his goods,or using enough of his services and causing him to pay high taxes (although never his fair share!). The only way to maintain the status quo is to get gullible middle-income (and even some low income) to obsess about taxes.The biggest trick the monied elite ever pulled was convincing the ordinary working man that taxes are evil. Big business has to answer to it's shareholders. In fact it's priority is to make money for these people. Now,I know that within the system the world at large works, companies need the shareholders' cash to pay for expansion etc-I understand basic economics.However, taxation necessarily reduces profits, therefore big business is duty-bound to support which ever major party supports lower taxation. In the UK the Conservatives (the right wing party) are continually attacking the Labour Party (Socialist-yes indeed  Blacksword) for public-spending.In fact it is the biggest issue between the two parties outside of taxation-although, obviously the two are linked. Why? Because public-spending necessitates higher taxation.Now I ask you, what is this money being spent on? The National health Service,Social Security (yesI know, it breeds loafers and scroungers, you are going to say) Education etc etc. This money is NOT being wasted no matter what you think, compared to what else money is used for in this world. And even if there was a lot of waste and inneficiency, I know where my sentiments lie. An extra hospital bed or a new Prada handbag for Paris-c'mon guys!

Reed: Good post!

You are right when you say the working classes have been led to believe that taxation is evil, but the problems run deeper than that IMO. In British politics we are in a similar position to the US, whereby you essentially have two conservative parties to vote for, and of course we have a comedy communist party in third place who no one really notices.

I question Labours socialist credentials. Believe me I'm no Tory!! But when the Labour party abolished Clause 4 of their constitution, which commited the party to public ownership of servies, THAT was the beginning of the death of Socialism in this country. Ok, they had to deal with the Tories legacy, but at the end of the day they are either a Labour Party or a Conservative Party. In the 21st century politcal climate they are Conservative. They won the 1997 election by appealing to disenchanted Tory voters in middle England. They have held onto that power and will continue to do so for a third term by appealing to them once again. They have betrayed many of their traditional votebase, to the point that many of them are now either done with politics completly - a situation that will always benefit government!! -  or who have fled to the fringes in protest, voting for such idiotic set ups as the BNP or UKIP.

Our home secretary - or should I say ex HS - brought in some of the most right wing legislation ever passed; worse than anything even Howard brought in when he was Majors HS!! Big business is so in bed with Labour you could be forgiven for thinking Thatcher was pulling the strings. I'm sure its no irony that Thatcher and Blair seem to have great admiration for each other.

I think the true face of politics is rearing its head in the 21st century. Politcs is power. Nothing more. At the end of the day, from here on, it will make no actual difference who is in power, they are all members of the same club.

Taxation can be absurd, see the situation in Perú:

Big Companies pay a lot of taxes and this seems fair, but let me tell you some effects in Volvo Perú where I worked until a year ago before they broke:

1.- Volvo pays almost 50% of their incomes to SUNAT (Our IRS).

2.- Volvo gave job to 1,000 Peruvians including me with 15 salaries a year (When the law only talks about 14) and the level was really high for Peru, my  salary was US$ 2,000,00 plus an average of $ 2,500 more in commissions for collection of debts. A mechanic earned even more than me, we all had the best medical insurance and high loans at very small rates to buy a house or a car plus free lunch and breakfast for all the employees (The company is very far so we can't go home) and those of us who wanted to eat better had to pay a very small plus (1 buck a day) to have restaurant service.

3.- Volvo has to sell a bus in $150,000 that reach 250,000 after taxes and $400,000 when sold in parts (Because the government adds tax to the fractioned payments, in other words if you have money to buy a bus cash, you pay less taxes than the poor guy that has to pay credit, being that this taxes  are payed by  the buyerrises the cost, it's a very high price.

4.- The Government allows ghost companies (Run by gypsies and Chinese) to bring used buses and sell the in 15,000, with tax exemption to small companies and almost no personnel, so their expenses are minimal, a small room and a deposit.

Other less serious companies put an office (a room) in frontier or Jungle zone and they get tax benefits, but this companies do all their activities in Lima, it's just a fraud. They don't give a single job in frontier or Jungle zone that is what the law pretended.

5.- People started to buy those buses, accidents raised in 300% (because there's no warrant in a used bus) and Volvo had to close leaving 950 Peruvians including me without a job, because they can't compete with not formal companies that don't pay taxes and have no employees except a secretary and 2 or 3 salesman twithout salary that live of the commissions.

6.- Volvo can't compete with his guys and against the Government who exploits them, because they say that few people pays taxes so they have to charge more to the honest ones who really pay, THIS IS ABSURD.

Now in the case of the worker:

1.- I received between $3,000 and $ 5,000 a month

2.- I have to pay my mortgage (About $ 700.00 a month), I also have to pay 18% of those payments as Sales Tax.

3.- The Government takes 21% of my gross incomes, then comes social security (Managed by a Chilean company) takes another 13.75%

4.- The Government takes 1% extra as a contribution for FONAVI (Low priced houses for workers), but being a professional I don't have the right to buy one of those houses. WHY SHOULD I PAY A DIRECT TAX FOR A BENEFIT THAT I'M NOT ENTITLED TO GET???????=?

5.- All the things I buy have to pay 18% of tax (IGV)

6.- Our Gasoline pays 60% of its value as tax, a gallon costs $3.50 (The highest price in the world)

7.- I have to pay annually 6% of tax for having a house (Even when it's not payed yet)

8.- Each time I deposit or take money from any Bank account and when I write a check or use a credit card I have to pay 1 X 1000 of each transaction to the Government

9.- If I buy a car I have to Pay the IGV (18%), which is higher, if I pay in parts because they charge it over the total price, so the richer people that can buy it cash, pay less tax.

10.- The cost of a passport according to an International Court rule, is $12.5 but we have to pay 75 bucks because the Government has decided that only rich people can travel, so they created a solidarity tax (Unconstitutional, because it's a limitation to the right of free transit).

I was lucky if I stayed with $1,500.00 after paying my mortgage, do you think this is fair for someone who has studied 6 years and works as a slave? I know we have to contribute with the needed people but I can do all the work and pay them their lives with more than 60% of my salary and live without a cent in savings?

So Reed not only rich people are against abusive taxation. One think is helping those who need another thing is to sacrifice most of my money to maintain people that don't want to work and live easily from our money.

Iván

Of course not confusing Socialism and Communism, remember my career is called Laws and Political Sciences, so we study most of the systems.

But my point is that a bland socialism may work in some already rich countries or in those that need a strong central Government like Israel, but in already poor countries it only brings more problems and scares the international investor who's the one that's going to give jobs.

Iván

Woo hoo, this is a thread you can sink your teeth into!

Before all you flag wavers for free market capitalism get too carried away, bear this in mind. Free market capitalism works exclusively in favour of the wealthy. The wealthy are an elite group whose loyalties know few nationalistic, ethnic, ideological or other boundaries - just look at the cosy chumminess of the Bush and Bin Laden dynasties. This elite group does not nclude you. It never will. In Ayn Rand's perfect world, you'd be one of those worthless beggars in the ghetto who have no one to look out for them or speak up for them, and I'd be next to you saying 'I told you so'.

Direct taxation is not evil, it's just been portrayed as such in a way that makes Goebbel's big lies look like the fibs of primary school children. Every time you vote for a party that promises to reduce taxes, you vote to increase the gap between rich and poor, which means between them and you. Every time the bully punches you in the face (assuring you it's for your own good) you say 'Thank you kind sir, may I have another?'.

Economic inequality is a fact of life, but the true measure of a successful eonomy is not how many millionaires it has created but how few paupers exist under it.

Tuxon, you're talking from the comfortof the Netherklands about the situation of countries you know nothing about except by text books or maybe touristic visits.

Our countries can't survice without investors from other countries, and the word Socialism scares todeath those investors.

There have been Socialist regimes in Perú, Bolivia, Chile, Ecuador, Nicaragua, etc and all had to give a step back because it doesn't work, true socialism is an utopic system, a dream within a dream.

Fidel Castro is the symbol of everything that's bad in Cuba, all the intellectuals of Cuba and Latin America saw him as a heroe, but after he imprissoned all those who didn't thought like him, they changed their minds. Peruvian Writter Mario Vargas Llosa wentto live the Revolution in Cuba, but after he saw the faillure it was he came back to Perú and founded an ultra Liberal Political Party.

Juan Velazco Alvarado (The socialist President of Perú) was a mess, but he was honest, not corrupt at all (His wife and some ministers becamecorrupt), he believed in Socialism, he gave the lands to the workers, but those workers weren't able to manage the farms in a productive way, they ate the resources in six months and destroyes what had worked perfectly for 150 years. He gave the newspapers to the workers, theylost all the sponsoring and he had to raise taxes to save the TV channels.

His perfect Socialism destroyed the fisghing industry, destroyed the big factories giving the management to the workers who weren't able to do that job, when a machine stopped to work, even because the mosr stupid and simple problem it was thrown away and with that many workers who oiperated those machines.

Perú had to start to import potatoes and sugar because the inefficient system destroyed our main natural product, As you know Potatoe ís native from Perú and sugar was one of our best products, and we had to buy them from Czecoeslovaquia, it was ridiculous.

There's not a single country in the world where Socialism really works for long periods, free market and Democracy are the only way, as Churchill said Democracy is a bad system, but works better than all the others.

Communism proved to be a faillure, they had to give astep back and free eastern countries in a terrible state, now thanks to the Communist system those countries are 50 years behind the rest of the world. So if real socialism and/or Communism really works, I don't know where.

Keep dreaming with the perfect socialist system, but man can't be changed, man is greedy it's his nature, everybody wants profit and almost everybody has a price (I don't, that's why I barely survive even though I'm a hell of a lawyer), so the perfect system won't work unless you change the nature of man, and that my friend is absolutely impossible.

You mention Chistianity and other Religions, but Christ  said, "There will be poor always".

Iván

ivan_2068 wrote: Tuxon, you're talking from the comfortof the Netherlands about the situation of countries you know nothing about except by text books or maybe touristic visits. Luckily I live in a country that almost havent got poverty Our countries can't survice without investors from other countries, and the word Socialism scares todeath those investors. For obvious reasons major investors are scared about socialism, this means sharing of their wealth, but their not clever enough to make that an advantage, rich people have more money to spend than poor people, so by making poor countries richer, the market increases and more money can be made. I'm not against making profit, I just believe that if profits are more equally distributed amongst the people, the profit will be higher. There have been Socialist regimes in Perú, Bolivia, Chile, Ecuador, Nicaragua, etc and all had to give a step back because it doesn't work, true socialism is an utopic system, a dream within a dream. I do not know about any socialist state, there never has been a such a state, the few attempts that were made, where seen as a threath to the western world and therefor boycotted and forced to war by America, South Africa or other western imperialistic forces. Fidel Castro is the symbol of everything that's bad in Cuba, all the intellectuals of Cuba and Latin America saw him as a heroe, but after he imprissoned all those who didn't thought like him, they changed their minds. Peruvian Writter Mario Vargas Llosa wentto live the Revolution in Cuba, but after he saw the faillure it was he came back to Perú and founded an ultra Liberal Political Party. I never thought of Cuba as a communistic state, freedom of choice, and the freedom to disagree with the leaders where not really encouraged, oppression is not a part of true communism. But Cuba has never got the chance to make it happen also, America isolated Cuba from the rest of the world, forcing them in the arms of the fascistic Sovjet Union. Juan Velazco Alvarado (The socialist President of Perú) was a mess, but he was honest, not corrupt at all (His wife and some ministers becamecorrupt), he believed in Socialism, he gave the lands to the workers, but those workers weren't able to manage the farms in a productive way, they ate the resources in six months and destroyes what had worked perfectly for 150 years. He gave the newspapers to the workers, theylost all the sponsoring and he had to raise taxes to save the TV channels. His perfect Socialism destroyed the fisghing industry, destroyed the big factories giving the management to the workers who weren't able to do that job, when a machine stopped to work, even because the mosr stupid and simple problem it was thrown away and with that many workers who oiperated those machines. Perfect socialism would incorporate the many differences among the workers, and utilise their potential to the fullest, some people are graet managers, others are good craftsman, everyone has some capacities that can be used to make the work better and easier for all. Perú had to start to import potatoes and sugar because the inefficient system destroyed our main natural product, As you know Potatoe ís native from Perú and sugar was one of our best products, and we had to buy them from Czecoeslovaquia, it was ridiculous. There's not a single country in the world where Socialism really works for long periods, free market and Democracy are the only way, as Churchill said Democracy is a bad system, but works better than all the others. Communism is not against Democracy, in fact democracy is the cornerstone for communist views, everyone has a say. Free market is not a problem also, I'm very much in favour of that. Communism proved to be a faillure, they had to give astep back and free eastern countries in a terrible state, now thanks to the Communist system those countries are 50 years behind the rest of the world. So if real socialism and/or Communism really works, I don't know where. Like I said before there hasn't been a true communistic state before, and it probably will never happen. The former Sovjet Union had a ruling class, there was no free speach, the poor where opressed, that's not communism, that was fascism. they just named it communism. Keep dreaming with the perfect socialist system, but man can't be changed, man is greedy it's his nature, everybody wants profit and almost everybody has a price (I don't, that's why I barely survive even though I'm a hell of a lawyer), so the perfect system won't work unless you change the nature of man, and that my friend is absolutely impossible. so true You mention Chistianity and other Religions, but Christ  said, "There will be poor always". Yes he did, but that's because we the people fail in our responsibilities towards God and our fellow men. After the verse, "There will always be poor people in the land," we find this: "Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land." (Deut. 15:11) Iván

I understand (a little) what your problem with so-called socialism is, but that isn't real socialism.

I will always be an Utopist, and I know it is Utopian to believe in the good in men, but I just do.

Sweetnighter wrote: If socialists/communists care so much about others why don't they get out there and lead by example and help people instead of clamoring for governments and their armies to steal money from those who have rightfully earned it?

How the heck do you know we dont?

Tell me Sweetsh*ter,how on earth does the government get money to run itself and the infrastructure of the country?
Leave it to big business? Oh yes, they have a great record when left to their own devices dont they? Environment,unemployment issues= profitability issues!

Sweetnighter wrote: Reed Lover wrote: Sweetnighter wrote: If socialists/communists care so much about others why don't they get out there and lead by example and help people instead of clamoring for governments and their armies to steal money from those who have rightfully earned it? How the heck do you know we dont? I shall be more clear. The socialist movement revolves around pointing to the wealth of others and claiming it as their own, and sequentially clamoring for more powerful forces to take that wealth for them. I'm sure many socialists are active in their communities, and I commend them for that, but its more a criticism of the movement in general. Take Christians. Although I'm an atheist, I praise Christian activists for going out and doing the dirty work themselves rather than socialists who expect others to do it for them and then somehow call themselves morally superior human beings. This is just stream-of-concious nonesense. I dont know where this is coming from-it has no basis in fact in my experiences.Gross generalisation based on the premise: "what I think is what I know." I know it is not the same but do you remember saying Geddy Lee writes all Rush's music-well this is another of your fanciful,under-researched, verbal technicolor-yawns! Tell me Sweetsh*ter,how on earth does the government get money to run itself and the infrastructure of the country? Taking money from big business of course! This is why socialism is self-destructive. As Iván said, after to socialists took over in Peru it was just a matter of time until the economy was sucked dry. After you steal the wealth of the rich, where does the money come from? Union run industries? I don't think so. As Iván said, they're ineffective. Look to the Soviet Union as another example of how this worked... and I'm talking about before Stalinist dictatorship! This problem became evident during Lenin's years. Leave it to big business? Oh yes, they have a great record when left to their own devices dont they? Environment,unemployment issues= profitability issues! Oh, but the government doesn't! Don't make me laugh. At least when one organization is mismanaged it goes out of business! Government can't "go out of business" and therefore has no need to be fiscally responsible.

So Sweetnighter-how do you pay for the running of a country?

This stumbling block seems to have eluded you.