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Sasquamo

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Posted: November 23 2006 at 18:14

I have a feeling that in this advanced day and age, most of the world super-powers are going to be around much longer than any empires in history lasted.

creation_curve View Drop Down

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Posted: November 23 2006 at 20:35

Here is some startling news..the UK has been paying the USA (defenders of the world and peacekpers elite) an annual fee since 1948 (i think) of several million pounds. On Hogmany 2006 a payment of £83 million wil be the last payment made to the USA for shafting the UK during the war, knowing we would need help.

Edited by creation_curve - November 24 2006 at 17:32

TheProgtologist View Drop Down

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Posted: November 23 2006 at 21:42

Your last paragraph is extremely out of line.

How dare you wish us ill will because of something that was done over 60 years ago?

And we didn't shaft Europe during WWII OR WWI,we saved it.

And we have stuck our noses in Korea's business in the past....it's called the Korean War...we also fought the Chinese there too.

Edited by TheProgtologist - November 23 2006 at 21:44

Australian View Drop Down

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Posted: November 23 2006 at 22:18

creation_curve wrote:

Here is some startling news..the UK has been paying the USA (defenders of the world and peacekpers elite) an annual fee since 1948 (i think) of several million pounds. On Hogmany 2006 a payment of £83 million wil be the last payment made to the USA for shafting the UK during the war, knowing we would need help.

The only word that springs to mind is.....b*****ds...long may you reap what you sow.....Vietnam, Iraq the first time, smd second, and wherever they stick their noded in....except China and North Korea.....mmm wonder why.

Shafting the UK? Over 300,000 Americans died to protect your country, and the rest Europe, to criticize them is wrong.

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: November 23 2006 at 23:12

Really amazing, I don't like the wal in the fronteerl, I admit it.

USA is far from perfect that's OK, no country is perfect.

But if it wasn't for USA, UK would have a Fuhrer instead of a Prime Minister or the Wall of Berlin would have been placed in Dublin if the USSR won, so better thank the help instead of attacking the ones who saved your butts.

Like it or not, USA was the only country that kept USSR from invading all Europe.

Iván

Forgotten Son View Drop Down

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Posted: November 24 2006 at 04:00

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Like it or not, USA was the only country that kept USSR from invading all Europe.

Exchanging one tyranny for another, more benevolent one doesn't make the latter free from justified criticism. Neo-colonialism is abhorrent, made worse by it's hypocricy.

Besides, the threat from the Soviet Union, at least in the latter half of the cold war was hugely exaggerated by Reagan's neocon government to justify some of the most staggering acts of brutality in the post-war world.

Edited by Forgotten Son - November 24 2006 at 04:02

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: November 24 2006 at 11:18

Forgotten Son wrote:

Exchanging one tyranny for another, more benevolent one doesn't make the latter free from justified criticism. Neo-colonialism is abhorrent, made worse by it's hypocricy.

I dstarted this thread criticizing USA for the wall and now I'm defending them, but what is fair is fair.

Please don't conpare the tyranny of the Nazi Regimen or the USSR who created sattelñite countries in all Eastern Europe with the treaties among USA and GB, it's ridiculous, ask the people from Czechoslovaquia about the famous Prague Sprimg and how it was repressed by the Soviet tanks.

USA and Great Britain are allies, remember how USA supported them during the Malvinas OIslands war (I won't call them Falklands) and how USA says nothing about British abuses in Ireland.

Besides, the threat from the Soviet Union, at least in the latter half of the cold war was hugely exaggerated by Reagan's neocon government to justify some of the most staggering acts of brutality in the post-war world.

Don't tralk about the latter half of the cold war, talk about the 50's and early 60's when the wall was built, if there was no USA taking care of Europe the USSR would not had stoppede in Berlin, as I said, probably in Dublin.

Iván

Ghandi 2

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Posted: November 24 2006 at 12:43

Maybe.
But you have Che Guevara as your avatar so I find it impossible to take you seriously.

Communism doesn't work and is directly contrary to Christianity because of its violence against religion (because the State should be God under Communism). Socialism is not anti-religious (whereas atheism was one of the central tenants of Marx's teachings), so it's not contrary to Christianity. I think.

Ivan, where did the Pope state that Socialism and Christianity can't work? Also, his opinion doesn't mean it's necessarily true and it's not doctrine unless it is stated as an infallible decree.

Edited by Ghandi 2 - November 24 2006 at 12:49

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: November 24 2006 at 20:38

Ghandi 2 wrote:

Maybe.
But you have Che Guevara as your avatar so I find it impossible to take you seriously.

I agree, Ernesto Che Guevare represents not the moderate Siocialism but the radical wing of Communism, who is absolutely incompatible with Christian Doctrine

Communism doesn't work and is directly contrary to Christianity because of its violence against religion (because the State should be God under Communism). Socialism is not anti-religious (whereas atheism was one of the central tenants of Marx's teachings), so it's not contrary to Christianity. I think.

In every Communist country Christianity has been banned, but the real Socialism (NotSocial Democracy which is a center hybrid) is MARXIST and as you will see after your questoion, Maxxism is also incompatible with Chrostianity.

Ivan, where did the Pope state that Socialism and Christianity can't work?

The moderate Socialist movement in Catholism is called LIBERATION THEOLOGY, and the Vatican through John Paul II has condemned it:

Due to the controversial nature of these topics, the place of liberation theology within the Church and the extent to which Church officials have addressed it has been a matter of corresponding controversy. Because liberation theology is only partially compatible with Catholic social teaching as expressed in official statements, it has been rejected by the Vatican because of the Marxist concepts that tend towards materialism; this aspect of liberation theology is the most objectionable to orthodox Catholic critics who regard it as "incitement to hate and violence (and) the exaltation of class struggle"

However the former Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, has praised that aspect of the movement which rejects violence and instead "stresses the responsibility which Christians necessarily bear for the poor and oppressed" [3]. Nevertheless in a deep essay on liberation published in 1983 he has strongly criticized the Marxist trend of liberation theology as presented by father Gutiérrez.

...

During the 1980-90s, Ratzinger continued his condemnation of liberation theology, prohibiting some dissident priests to teach these doctrines in the Catholic church's name and excommunicating Tissa Balasuriya in Sri Lanka for the same. Under his influence, theological formation schools were prohibited from using the Catholic Church's organization and grounds to teach liberation theology as its doctrines contradicts the global Catholic church policy.

As you see, the priests that continue teaching Liberation Theology are being excomunicated, something very drastic.

Also, his opinion doesn't mean it's necessarily true and it's not doctrine unless it is stated as an infallible decree.

Yes, but his orders must be accepted by the clergy under risk of excommunication and this already happened, but if you want official Papal documents, you can check:

Libertatis Nuntius and Libertatis Conscientia

In this documents John Paul II clearly states that any form of Marxist ideology (Socialism included) is not compatible with the Catholic Church despite he respects the concern of this discident priests for the poor.

Once it's in an official document signed by the Pope in his ORDINARIUM MAGISTERIUM, it's mandatory and must be accepted as infallible.

Iván

jalas

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Posted: November 24 2006 at 20:48

Well, I started this thread because I wanted to see how people thought the American empire would fall. It is one of Newton's laws of physics: what goes up must come down.

Now I find myself being attacked for whatever else I stand for. I am a Christian because I am a Christian. I am a socialist because I don't think that any one person is greater than the next regardless of how much education they have and how much wealth they have accumilated. We all know what it feels like to have pain so we should all know if we are hurting someone because we should want to know of a better way. I don't believe that democracy in the United States is allowing this kind of generosity to flourish with all it's free trade and competition which closes small business down, creates poor jobs, lays off people to send the work elsewhere and keeps us quiet with television.

This is why democracy works. It works for the greedy who are always there waiting to see who they are going to devour next. I don't want to live in this country anymore because I become one of those that contributes to the destruction of lives. I am not worthy of having more than my neighbors.

Now what is so bad about me thinking this way? I am a peaceful person who just happens to believe that El Che Guevara was a genuine person who was actually fighting for what is right. You can believe whatever you want to believe, but as long as we are willing to listen to each other, we cannot be attacking each other. I am a deep believer in the Golden rule and you don't even have to be a Christian to believe in such a thing. It's a universal rule that can bring more understanding. even if the world will never get together to follow this rule, we can at least start individually. Again, what's so bad about me thinking this way?

The good thing about socialism is that Religion is ignored. It is never used for political gain. Even if the government outlaws my religion, it will never stop me from worshiping. I believe that my God is the final authority and there is no law above him. No government will ever stop me from talking. What's so bad about thinking the way I think?

Will I cause harm to you by believing that there is always a better way? I want to find the better way without leaving out a single person from the solution. Everyone should benefit.

Now again, my question is, how do you think this empire will fall? It is an empire in tradition even if it has to do with business. Empires have always been business related.

JOIN THE COMMUNIST PARTY!

Australian View Drop Down

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Posted: November 24 2006 at 20:54

it will fall (as will the rest of the world) if Japan asks for all its money back...

Edited by Australian - November 24 2006 at 20:55

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: November 24 2006 at 21:06

jalas wrote:

Well, seems you're against democracy...so you rather have a dictator?

BTW: If you don't want to live in the States, there are lots of planes, you can go by car to Canada and take a plane to Cuba, but do it soon, because when Fidel dies Socialism there will also fall.

El Che Guevara was a genuine person who was actually fighting for what is right.

For what is right according to YOU and HIM, but not according to the majority of Bolivians who rejected his doctrine.

Why must an Argentinean terrorist come to our countries to tell us in what we MUST believe???

He goes against the great legacy of democracy taught by another Argentinean Don José de San Martin, who came fought for our independency against Spain and when he was offered to be the President of Perú as long as he lived, he thanked but said "No, I came to free a country, now you must decide what kind of Government you want and you shall never be ruled again by anybody different than a Peruvian."

That's being a genuine and hourable person who deserves our respect but is forgotten by most Peruvians.

BTW: How many people did this genuine terrorist killed with his own hands in Cuba and Bolivia?

Iván

creation_curve View Drop Down

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Posted: November 24 2006 at 21:30

America is not an empire, but a voluntary police force, whether the peoples of the world want it or not. Forever interfering in other countries policies, when the home fires are burning out of control.

My favourite mirth inducing, concerns more than a few other ally countries. Most to a man decried apartheid. However, Australia and America both used and abused the indigenous tribes of both these countries, but not a word was/is spoken about the treatment of these peoples. We keep hearing how these 2 continents were founded, unfortunately they were already populated. But, that didn't stop them claiming for king and country (England), for the ignorant majority.

Long live ignorance.

stonebeard View Drop Down

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Posted: November 24 2006 at 21:30

jalas wrote:

Now again, my question is, how do you think this empire will fall?

First, the USA will have to become an empire.

Edited by stonebeard - November 24 2006 at 21:31

My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!

Ghandi 2

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Posted: November 24 2006 at 22:21

So basically Ivan, the problem with Socialism is its Marxist elements? That makes sense, but I think it would be possible to separate the idea from Marx.

Che was a monster who was responsible for the deaths of thousands of people, if not more. That he is on millions of T-Shirts only shows the ignorance of the American public.

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: November 24 2006 at 23:17

Ghandi 2 wrote:

So basically Ivan, the problem with Socialism is its Marxist elements? That makes sense, but I think it would be possible to separate the idea from Marx.

Great, but then it would be The Social Doctrine of the Church, Social Democracy or Social Christianity but not Socialism.

All this doctrines with social sensibility but who believe in democracy are not Marxists, the essense of Socialism is Marxism.

Che was a monster who was responsible for the deaths of thousands of people, if not more. That he is on millions of T-Shirts only shows the ignorance of the American public.

People is naive in all the world, the guys who did this in Perú:

Two faces of the sae reality: A very poor community in the jungle burned with some of their citizens and a whole street in Lima blowed by three bomb cars, that luckilly didn't worked completely because only one blew.

And the naive University students in USA, London, Sweden, etc received them as Social fighters.

As a paradox they sold T-Shirts and collected money in New York after our representatives asked for help in extradition before the UN without answer.

The answer was always "They have done nothing illegal in our country", how different are those days from today.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 24 2006 at 23:19

Peter

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Posted: November 25 2006 at 03:59

These guys saw their empire fade away:

Bin Laden through the desert on a horse with no mane....

Edited by Peter Rideout - November 26 2006 at 00:04

"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.

JrKASperov View Drop Down

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Posted: November 25 2006 at 05:38

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Also, his opinion doesn't mean it's necessarily true and it's not doctrine unless it is stated as an infallible decree.

Yes, but his orders must be accepted by the clergy under risk of excommunication and this already happened, but if you want official Papal documents, you can check:

Libertatis Nuntius and Libertatis Conscientia

Once it's in an official document signed by the Pope in his ORDINARIUM MAGISTERIUM, it's mandatory and must be accepted as infallible.

Iván

Not everyone is a catholic of course.

Edited by JrKASperov - November 25 2006 at 06:45

Epic.

Forgotten Son View Drop Down

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Posted: November 25 2006 at 07:54

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

The UNited States foreign policy during the Cold War is easily comparable to that of the USSR. Ask the 30,000 Nicaraguans that were slaughtered by US backed contras. Ask the 100s of thousands of Indonesians and East Timorese who were massacred by Suharto and other repressive regimes.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

USA and Great Britain are allies, remember how USA supported them during the Malvinas OIslands war (I won't call them Falklands) and how USA says nothing about British abuses in Ireland.

Allies and partners in crime.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

So that gives license for America to abuse human rights and regularly break international law without my (justified) criticism?

Edited by Forgotten Son - November 25 2006 at 07:59

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: November 25 2006 at 09:40

Forgotten Son wrote:

The UNited States foreign policy during the Cold War is easily comparable to that of the USSR. Ask the 30,000 Nicaraguans that were slaughtered by US backed contras. Ask the 100s of thousands of Indonesians and East Timorese who were massacred by Suharto and other repressive regimes.

Well, USA never took political control over the countrieds and directly executed more Jewishs than Hitler as Stalin did or sent even more people to the Gulags, they didn't closed the borders of many countries to avoid people from escapimng an d supressed all the liberties.

BTW: The Sandinists were possibly a new Cuba so USA supported one sector whule USSR supported theother and Suharto was not directly supported by USA.

And the economic support to Suharto doies not compare with military interventions by USSR during the Cold War.

Allies and partners in crime.

My post about USA backing England was in reply to a post complaining against USA by an Englamnd, so your comment is at leas unnecassary.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

So that gives license for America to abuse human rights and regularly break international law without my (justified) criticism?

No, but sometimes you have to compare the damage caused and the damage that could cause their lack of intervention.

As I said USA is not perfect and my first post in this hread was to criticize the wall, but I prefer them rather than any Communist Government.

Iván