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What ever happened to E.L.P.?

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verslibre View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2025 at 11:25
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

In truth they should have stopped after the live triple album and then we would probbaly not even be having this debate.


–Stop with WBMFTTSTNE

–80s: Emerson, Lake & Powell (2 albums)

–90s: Black Moon

A much better look. No 3, either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2025 at 22:10
Originally posted by BasedProgger BasedProgger wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

In truth they should have stopped after the live triple album and then we would probbaly not even be having this debate.


Maybe but then again there are a lot of bands that could have stopped after any album and their legacy wouldn't have been tarnished. Genesis could have stopped after Peter Gabriel or Steve Hackett's departure, Pink Floyd could have stopped after 1974, and The Who could have stopped after Keith Moon's death. But they didn't stop and it's best that bands break up when they want to. ELP shouldn't have been forced to make that commercial album. They should have been allowed to stop after Works.

ELP was all albout those early albums though. I like Works Vol One but 3 sides of solo music was too much for even die hard ELP fans while the later albums were confused messes excepting Black Moon perhaps. But then we get ITHS (2 steps back after 1 forward). I did think about Genesis but actually ATTWT and Duke were fine and well put together records. Later records were not so bad as their reputations excepting CAS but no one really thinks that's a Genesis record anyway. The Who were mainly a live band with one stellar studio album. The comment about Floyd is strange (WYWH and Animals???!!)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2025 at 22:43
^ WYWH & Animals are two great records, I think that's his point.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2025 at 23:19
^ I don't think it is as he doesn't like (or rate) Animals highly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2025 at 23:43
^ Yeah it's hard to tell what exactly his point is, especially since WYWH is one of the great albums of the 1970s.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fuxi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2025 at 02:34
Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Said it many times before but PA listings tend to value consistency more than inspiration when it comes to album ratings. There is plenty wrong with the PA top 100 as far as I'm concerned, not just the lack of ELP. No Rick Wakeman albums at all (at least 2 should be in there) and he was a contemporary of ELP maybe even doing it better than them on Six Wives up to and inc White Rock. Scottish band Beggars Opera were also a tremendous band with all the chops of ELP. Their debut Act One was incredible. I think many reviewers actually don't appreciate this pure classical approach as Pedro suggests. The filler thing is a red herring imo. Just an excuse to mark them down for no good reason. For some reason Genesis can get away with Battle Of Epping Forest yet the knives are out when ELP do the 2 minute throwaway ditty BTB. My final thought is that ELP did untold damage to their legacy with the awful Love Beach. That was a horror story and their collective reputations took a massive hit and somehow never recovered from it. That gave all the ammunition needed to the punks yet in spirit they were as rebellious as any punk band which is the strangely ironic thing about the whole affair!


Rick Wakeman is indeed sadly overlooked. One of my very favorite artists... indeed more so than ELP. He's got more music, both individual songs or whole albums, that I love than most other artists, including ELP, and even Yes themselves (whom are also among my very favorite artists).


I love THE SIX WIVES too, and awarded it a five-star review. I also greatly enjoyed one of Rick's recent releases:

https://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=3052789
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kirk782 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2025 at 03:14
Originally posted by BasedProgger BasedProgger wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

In truth they should have stopped after the live triple album and then we would probbaly not even be having this debate.


Maybe but then again there are a lot of bands that could have stopped after any album and their legacy wouldn't have been tarnished. Genesis could have stopped after Peter Gabriel or Steve Hackett's departure, Pink Floyd could have stopped after 1974, and The Who could have stopped after Keith Moon's death. But they didn't stop and it's best that bands break up when they want to. ELP shouldn't have been forced to make that commercial album. They should have been allowed to stop after Works.


Pink Floyd still made decent work post 1974 but many other prog giants didn't. VdGG latter half of the repertoire plays it quite safe and somewhat bland. The Who actually did a farewell tour in 1982, I think, called Who's Last in support of their then LP [It's Hard was it?]. That had Eminence Front , considered by many to be the last great song by the band. Half of the band then re grouped[2 members] to make couple of more albums this side of the century and they couldn't even touch half the greatness of Who's Next.

Led Zeppelin were one of the few bands to call it quits and not have a rotating cast of character for the band due to which they were canonized in rock history [despite Robert Plant himself holding his past lyricism not in any high esteem].
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2025 at 07:51
Originally posted by kirk782 kirk782 wrote:

......
Half of the band then re grouped[2 members] to make couple of more albums this side of the century and they couldn't even touch half the greatness of Who's Next.
...
Led Zeppelin were one of the few bands to call it quits and not have a rotating cast of character for the band due to which they were canonized in rock history [despite Robert Plant himself holding his past lyricism not in any high esteem].

Hi,

I think THE WHO did it for the money that was being offered. Without Keith and John, they were not a very good band, and it kinda said it all ... those two added something to the band that was really good all around, and while Keith was appreciated after he left us, John has (pretty much) been ignored for his touch and taste. Honestly, for me, Pete was grossly over rated, and the most that folks remember him for is him being an idiot and doing Bonzo Dog Impressions (Legs Larry Smith taught Keith how to trash drums and such!), and kinda taking it to an extreme (Woodstock), which was not something about his musicianship or talent ... it was something about a young man that didn't care, as much about things as we did ... and trashing them was a way to say ... I'm rich, and you are not. A very good thing in those days in terms of what fame was, that is still going on today with the Internet.

LZ is a different beast. RP not thinking much of his early lyrics is not surprising. I think he is tired of the accolades and everything else, and even after a drink, it starts getting monotonous and sick, so one way to let go the boredom is to say something about it, that will get any writers, or interviewers, asking different questions, and hopefully change the subject, or he is gone.

The main thing, though, is that Pete and Roger look really tired and not interested or happy. At the very least, all three members left from LZ have a wider appreciation for their work, and how they went out at the top when Bonzo passed away. And they look much better at their history. THE WHO by comparison always felt like they were fighting something all the time, and it got tired after a while, even though they have some fantastic material.
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BasedProgger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2025 at 09:31
Originally posted by kirk782 kirk782 wrote:

Pink Floyd still made decent work post 1974 but many other prog giants didn't. VdGG latter half of the repertoire plays it quite safe and somewhat bland. The Who actually did a farewell tour in 1982, I think, called [I]Who's Last[/I] in support of their then LP [It's Hard was it?]. That had [I]Eminence Front [/I], considered by many to be the last great song by the band. Half of the band then re grouped[2 members] to make couple of more albums this side of the century and they couldn't even touch half the greatness of [I]Who's Next.[/I]

Led Zeppelin were one of the few bands to call it quits and not have a rotating cast of character for the band due to which they were canonized in rock history [despite Robert Plant himself holding his past lyricism not in any high esteem].


Pink Floyd did make great albums post 1974. There was a discussion about this last year on the Steve Hoffman music forums suggesting that things would have been better for them and rumor had it all four members told their manager separately they were thinking of leaving the band. Had they broken up, we would have at least got live versions of "Shine on you Crazy Diamond" and two of the songs from Animals, and maybe The Wall could have been a Roger Waters solo album.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2025 at 02:29
^ Wash your mouth out with soap. It's this kind of trolling that got to Keith in the end.  The very idea that Kansas were competition, you're having a laugh!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2025 at 02:33
^ I agree, talk about arrogant.   One wonders if the poster is even a musician.   I would guess not.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2025 at 04:31
^ I think taking the piss out of Emerson is reason enough.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2025 at 04:55
Originally posted by meAsoi meAsoi wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

People are too often lead by journalistic opinion but then ELP did bring a lot on themselves, ie touring with a 60 piece orchestra during the summer of punk, losing a million dollars a show (as estimated by Greg Lake at the time) and then deciding to do a commercial album with a dreadful cover. This was a band unhinged and scoring several own goals (to use soccer parlance). It was a long road to recovery .. but then they do In The Hot Seat. In truth they should have stopped after the live triple album and then we would probbaly not even be having this debate.
In the summer of punk, the punk-rock movement, limited to a few London streets and hysteria in a certain music press, was no competition for Keith Emerson. That year, a competition for him could have been, say, Kansas, with their album "Point of Know Return." Or Yes, with their also successful album "Going for the One." But they weren't a problem for Keith Emerson either. The biggest "problem" for him was the fact that he was not Rachmaninoff; the late Keith Emerson was, let's face it, "only" a prog rock keyboardist, and "Piano Concerto No. 1" was still too much for him.

It had nothing to do with competition. ELP were already labelled 'Dinosaurs' as were many other bands in the mainstream rock press. Prog rock had thrived when there was a base of music critics who took them seriously. When that changed it was the beginning of the end. Punk Rock was a much more serious thing than you are crediting it for being and a lot of those guys were well aware of prog bands and even liked them. But too many prog artists were stuck up their own bums and were unable to change. Also plain fact of it is that ELP, Yes, Genesis, Supertramp and many more bands of the classic era were running on fumes and their glory days were in the past. Pink Floyd were always a bit late to the party but kind of adapted because they could see what was happening. ELP should have been too big to fail but history tells us otherwise. His Piano Concerto was indeed a step too far but not because it was bad but because of perception (up own arse and all that). Maybe Love Beach was an attempt to look relaxed and 'hey look at us guys we can get down with the kids etc' . It was utterly unconvincing and actually terrible in a very real way. At least with the Piano Concerto, Keith was being authentic and true to himself. Don't ever lose that or you have nothing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2025 at 05:44
That was all based on either intertia or the ability of the bands to change and adapt at least a little. 1977 was still a good year for prog as the bands were still massive and selling out arenas, yep I know that. I mean these bands still sold loads in the 1980's making some real crap. I'm not sure what your point is? By 1980 it seemed everyone who was anyone was being interviewed in music magazines and were busy apoligising for the 'bad' albums they made with those long self indulgent suites and silly lyrics. That was the problem, the great prog revisionism had begun in 1977 and by the 1980's was stinking up the place to high heaven. I suppose with ELP and many bands it's only the legacy that really matters. Protect that at all cost or pay the price. I'm guessing that ELP sold a lot less later on. ELPowell barely cracked the top 40 in the UK but it was way better than Love Beach (not that that was hard to do) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2025 at 05:44
You also forget how so-called punks still loved prog.  For instance, Danny Baker, founder of 'Sniffin' Glue' remains a huge ELP fan.  One point he makes lost in all the noise about ELP albums is their greatness as a live band with Emerson constantly improvising.  Particularly impressive are the trio performances of Pirates after the band were forced to ditch the orchestra on the Works tour. Keep telling me Emerson was just a prog-rock keyboard player...

Edited by Rick1 - February 28 2025 at 05:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2025 at 05:47
Emerson had force of personality though. That made him a bit different until Rick Wakeman came long then there was that 'fake' rivalry to keep things bubbling along. Remerber Wakeman saying 'Keith Who?' when he was asked his opinion? LMAO!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lobster77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2025 at 05:50
like Fuxi said Tarkus, BSS, and Trilogy are all great but their debut is worth a listen too
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2025 at 01:37
^ Neo prog I agree (although only Marillion's albums from that decade are placed high so it's a moot point) but if ELP had done Works a few years earlier it would not have been received the same backlash that happened in 1977. That and the collapse of the Works orchestral tour and the joke album Love Beach killed them, all happening when the music landscape was changing dramatically. They indeed looked out of place, out of touch and desperately short of ideas. Anyway whatever. ELP had their day, I just wished they hadn't tarnished their legacy and reputations the way they did. Works was just the natural end of things. What came after was entirely pointless and did way more damage imo.

Edited by richardh - March 01 2025 at 01:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2025 at 15:18
Originally posted by Lobster77 Lobster77 wrote:

like Fuxi said Tarkus, BSS, and Trilogy are all great but their debut is worth a listen too

The debut is my personal favorite. I find it to be the most consistent plus no silly cowboy songs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2025 at 23:44
ELP never get any credit for being eclectic. Other bands can do 'silly songs' (ie Caravan with Golf Girl, Genesis with More Fool Me, Gentle Giant with Dog's Life) and seemingly get away with it. Oh well.
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