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A Person
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Posted: March 22 2016 at 19:37 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
A Person wrote:
Trump's existence makes me dislike capitalists even more, does that count?
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Trump isn't more capitalist than any other candidate is.
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I still hope that Sander's portrait of Eugene Debs means something :')
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Equality 7-2521
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Posted: March 22 2016 at 20:42 |
Yes I'm sure it means a lot. Sanders is a citizen of the the world. Just a world that excludes the civilians he's wont to bomb into oblivion.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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A Person
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Posted: March 22 2016 at 20:47 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Yes I'm sure it means a lot. Sanders is a citizen of the the world. Just a world that excludes the civilians he's wont to bomb into oblivion.
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That is true, I dislike that in him and it's a part of the reason why I like Jill Stein more.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
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Posted: March 23 2016 at 01:16 |
rogerthat wrote:
JJLehto wrote:
Ironically, rogerthat, one thing that shifted my thinking was the realization labor utilization is far more sorely lacking than I ever knew. Many on the right, and left I later found out, would cite the "real unemployment" rate to show how poor things have been under Obama. I, being fair, decided to look at the data going farther back and saw the "real" rate was appallingly high under GW Bush, and still pretty high even under Clinton. So it hit me, there is a very real problem and it has little to do with Obama. Especially given the fact we've gone increasingly lesser gov/more pro market ideology. Even Obama's stimulus was more like putting a bandaid on a chainsaw wound. I started to feel we may need more active policy
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That's the rub. To create more jobs, either govt can cut taxes even more to make it more attractive for investment or get involved in business itself. There are limits to the former given the independence of states in your country and the latter is anathema in the US. |
And also, while I think tax cuts are gunna fail to do much at all...at least on their own, that's it. The bigger issue for me is the spending cuts. I can accept, and kinda prefer, more spending and investment by the gov even if it means we need to tax the rich less. Quite fine with it. Likewise, I dont really like all these compromise budgets of more taxes, less spending. I'd rather accept the less taxes on top if it meant preserving the spending. So the GOP wants to do both: give a boon to the top and hack government necessary for the economy and people, while the Dems will raise taxes on the top while taking a pair of scissors to spending  Not really into either option, so I really am glad the Progressive Caucus has been putting out its own budget now.
Anyway, given the fact most people my age seem to be libertarian, or sanders and this seems to hold nationwide...gunna be an interesting future
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rogerthat
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Posted: March 23 2016 at 11:19 |
JJLehto wrote:
And also, while I think tax cuts are gunna fail to do much at all...at least on their own, that's it. The bigger issue for me is the spending cuts. I can accept, and kinda prefer, more spending and investment by the gov even if it means we need to tax the rich less. Quite fine with it. Likewise, I dont really like all these compromise budgets of more taxes, less spending. I'd rather accept the less taxes on top if it meant preserving the spending. So the GOP wants to do both: give a boon to the top and hack government necessary for the economy and people, while the Dems will raise taxes on the top while taking a pair of scissors to spending  Not really into either option, so I really am glad the Progressive Caucus has been putting out its own budget now.
Anyway, given the fact most people my age seem to be libertarian, or sanders and this seems to hold nationwide...gunna be an interesting future |
Bringing down top tax is not a great idea. Although it is not a great model of taxation long term, in the medium term with the middle and lower class being squeezed, I would rather there were more slabs of taxation to discriminate between different income bands from upper middle class through to the rich. I don't know what the slabs exactly are in USA but say in India we have one rate of tax for all income over $15000 up to infinity (with a surcharge for income exceeding $150000). I think this does not discriminate enough between middle, upper middle and rich. And meanwhile you could lower or do away with taxes on income below a certain level. In the past, this would have been argued to a bad idea on the grounds that the 'rich' would use various legal loopholes to conceal taxable income anyway. But today you have heads of conglomerates commanding huge salaries (some who make multi million dollar salaries, even in India). That's salary and tax deducted at source, so it should be an easy way to mop up higher tax revenue without significantly denting consumption. There is either a lack of imagination on the part of govt or a stubborn desire to protect the well heeled or a combination of both. It's not that I want to advocate for a way to pull down the rich to get them on par with the poor or some such communist agenda. But I fear we will permanently kill demand if we do not shift the burden of tax to those who can bear it more easily than the majority. And even if suppose there is a good case for limited govt in the long run, in the medium term it is govt which will have to crowd in the private sector as the latter still seems to lack confidence given the bleak business environment of today. That is, we are not going to be able to do away with taxes, so why not tax higher income levels at higher rates?
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JJLehto
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Posted: March 23 2016 at 15:07 |
No doubt, I just mean since politics is compromise (unless you are gifted with a rare opportunity) I can accept not taxing the rich if it means getting more gov spending, or shifting more of it from defense to social, however. Well if you're curious:
Something whacky happened, not sure why there's a bracket that covers less than a $2,000 spread   Anyway, first graph are the tax brackets, and keep in mind with various deductions, public assistance, tax returns etc 40ish% end up paying 0 or negative. (In my case, last year I had very little income, so paid no taxes but got to deduct my tuition and student loans so ended up with a -47% tax rate  ) So yeah as you see it's a fairly progressive system, and the top rate hits at over 400k a year to infinity, but taxes are lower on stuff like cap gains, dividends which is why finance people like Mitt Romney can make $10+mill a year and pay 14% in taxes, it's up to a whopping 20% now ha
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rogerthat
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Posted: March 23 2016 at 21:47 |
That does look like a pretty progressive distribution of tax slabs, more so than ours! Although I would like to see no tax for at least a certain income basket rather than just the lowest rate of tax. Income below roughly $3800 is not taxed at all in India and since that is the net taxable income, you could effectively have an income of around $4500 and still not be taxed after considering deductions and exemptions. As for cap gains/dividends, yes, the tax on cap gains is anemic here too and they dare not touch that for fear of upsetting the 'markets'. Dividends are taxed in the hands of the companies distributing dividends but an additional tax has been brought in to capture individual promoters earning huge dividends. Additionally, and more interestingly, India has moved on Base Erosion and Profit Shifting (jargon, sorry) to capture income earned by websites serving Indian consumers but hosted abroad. The idea is to make them set up shop in India instead. This is more or less in line with what the OECD has already proposed to address BEPS issues but India has moved first to actually tax them. I almost expected a 'Piketty' budget this time but while that didn't materialise, that is the ideological direction emerging from what changes were made this time. Inequality is and should be front and center of the debate again, not because it's 'inherently unjust' (which it is not) but for purely economic reasons it doesn't make sense to repress the majority of the population and concentrate wealth in the hands of the capitalists.
Edited by rogerthat - March 23 2016 at 21:47
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JJLehto
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Posted: March 25 2016 at 13:13 |
Yeah, it's fairly progressive except for at top, like mentioned, where if you make a ton of $ off cap gains/dividends your tax rate falls significantly. Again despite all the vitriol at Obama and socialism, hating the rich blah blah his tax bill raised top rate on that kind of income from 15 to 20% oh the horror
Indeed, inequality is more than just "not nice" or "unfair" and all that, which also gets into sticky political debates, I believe it's detrimental to our democracy and economy. You are familiar with the pie analogy I am sure: Long as the pie gets bigger everyone gets more, and worrying how big we cut the pieces for everyone shrinks the pie.... I think reality has proven that as the pie grows, if left to itself, nearly all of it starts going to a few people, leaving the rest to starve. Basically textbooks got it backwards in my eyes, as more gets collected by a few, it actually hurts the economy...seems common sense to me.
And anyway the memes are all wrong. It's always "why punish those with more education/who worked hard/made something of themselves" etc etc but the inequality divide really does split between the very top and the rest. Like I'm all for people getting grad degrees, becoming engineers, doctors, lawyers, working their way up to a management level, even starting a small business etc but that population has grown very steadily over time....the explosion in inequality is above that. The 1% doesn't fully grasp it, (though it was a start) but even smaller groups are responsible for the burst of inequality. Top .1 and .01% which I believe are nearly all bankers, big finance people, high level execs and of course CEOs at bigger companies
I did like Piketty's book overall. Was a helluva historical document packed with tons of great info and he and Saez (who I cited in a university paper back in like 2007) are the ones who kinda made inequality a thing, but I did find his overall solution, a bit weak...didn't he admit even it was unrealistic? I am in favor of higher estate taxes, which he mentioned, higher cap gains and some type of change to encourage CEO pay to be less in stocks and etc Not sure of details but Im sure smarter people have ideas
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rogerthat
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Posted: March 26 2016 at 00:33 |
JJLehto wrote:
I think reality has proven that as the pie grows, if left to itself, nearly all of it starts going to a few people, leaving the rest to starve. Basically textbooks got it backwards in my eyes, as more gets collected by a few, it actually hurts the economy...seems common sense to me. |
That's exactly what's happening. The thing is as much as economics has changed, the basic tenets were laid down way back in the mercantile age and refined through the industrial age which all presume that labour will keep growing as long as capital grows. I.e. a supply side focus. That's not what's being observed in the post industrial age. It was clear that things had changed back in the 1930s when Keynesian economics had to be applied for the first time but the demand focus approach of Keynes was discredited too much after the hyperinflation of the 70s. The focus should have shifted back to jobs after the necessary repair work of the economies was carried out in the 80s but that never happened and instead the market-oriented pivot only grew sharper.
JJLehto wrote:
Like I'm all for people getting grad degrees, becoming engineers, doctors, lawyers, working their way up to a management level, even starting a small business etc but that population has grown very steadily over time....the explosion in inequality is above that. The 1% doesn't fully grasp it, (though it was a start) but even smaller groups are responsible for the burst of inequality. Top .1 and .01% which I believe are nearly all bankers, big finance people, high level execs and of course CEOs at bigger companies |
You know, I was just watching Wall Street for the nth time yesterday (there are some passages of dialogue in that film that I absolutely love ) and Stone, via Gekko, expounds on the 0.1% problem...in 1987. More recently, Scorcese did so too in Wolf of Wall Street and in much harsher and more depressing language, questioning what's the whole point of becoming a teacher or a police officer when Wall Street crooks make way more money (even after being caught and serving time etc). I wonder why is it that economists cannot see what, um, filmmakers can. To be fair, some do, like Krugman who's been ranting about it forever. But it's indeed Piketty who's brought back inequality to the center of the debate after a long time.
JJLehto wrote:
I did like Piketty's book overall. Was a helluva historical document packed with tons of great info and he and Saez (who I cited in a university paper back in like 2007) are the ones who kinda made inequality a thing, but I did find his overall solution, a bit weak...didn't he admit even it was unrealistic? I am in favor of higher estate taxes, which he mentioned, higher cap gains and some type of change to encourage CEO pay to be less in stocks and etc Not sure of details but Im sure smarter people have ideas |
Sounds interesting, I should read the book sometime, I have been going by what he's himself said in interviews given w.r.t the book.
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JJLehto
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Posted: March 26 2016 at 02:27 |
Yeah, the 70s killed of Keynes, at least the spirit of him, and from I gather it's more ideology than economic. I always thought it was obvious the oil crises were mainly responsible for stagflation and if there was too much gov spending, it was from Vietnam. But the bad times gave Friedman and co the chance to finally launch to mainstream. The Keynesianism of today is still quite moderate in comparison to the "spirit" of the original work.
Fun fact: There is an economics professor at a local college near me who I never even took but stumbled upon and talked with, turns out he's an old school Keynesian. He studied under a guy who was one of the big names in Post Keynesian economics (aka those who stayed true to his message and never accepted the mergers with mainstream thought) and he said pretty much just that: It was ideology in the 70s not so much fact, and his mentor even said to Friedman once "Have you even read the General Theory!?"  Anyway this guy is a cool dude, he showed me his copy of the General Theory beat to hell and filled with notes he wrote in it as a student, he explained to me how the stagflation was not a refutation to Keynes, and is actually totally understandable via Keynes' work. Just people didn't read it, fully grasp it or had their own beliefs already. Partly also was the "merger" lost some of Keynes' stuff, so Friedman could claim "ha! They could never see this, they have no clue" when in fact it wasn't unforseeable at all. Basically: Selling out sucks 
Oh wow! That's nuts. Never saw the original but I did like the Scorcese one. Really should check the 87 film. Yeah it sounds pandery, but it's in the data. .1% of the US owns 22% of its wealth. I guess some may have no issue with that, but seems unhealthy to me. Have to give Stone major kudos for that. Only the most progressive of economists started talking about inequality in the 90s. Krugman I know has since the 2000s. Piketty and Saez started late 90s I think. To hit on that topic so far back is kind of nuts
Piketty's book: I really wish there was a "cliffnotes" version. One that was stripped down to mostly the graphs, essentials and some big facts. The bare bones. The thing is 700 pages and uh...quite laborious to say the least. I haven't read it in a sitting, or even in order. Have gone piece by piece, at my discretion over time. The full thing is of course great, but it could absolutely be condensed and get all the points across in much less effort.
By seeing interviews honestly you got what was needed in terms of overall thrust
Edited by JJLehto - March 26 2016 at 02:32
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rogerthat
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Posted: March 26 2016 at 02:36 |
Keynes said govts should run deficits during recessions and run a tight ship during booms. Basically smooth out the cycle. He never said govts should keep expanding deficits to pursue full employment, that was heterodox policy, just like QE. As you say, the monetarists and fiscal conservatives saw a golden opportunity to put the knife in the 70s and ran with it. But at what price?
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Disparate Times
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Posted: March 26 2016 at 09:05 |
I think citizens would be happier if the govt would stop taxing their income, putting more money in their pockets should stimulate the economy. No one spends someone else's money as well as they would spend their own.
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Songs are like tightly budgeted meals Nobodies doing anything new or even real
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rogerthat
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Posted: March 26 2016 at 11:04 |
Disparate Times wrote:
I think citizens would be happier if the govt would stop taxing their income, putting more money in their pockets should stimulate the economy. No one spends someone else's money as well as they would spend their own. |
No taxes on low income earners, yes. Lower taxes on middle income, yes. But once you get to the rich, they run out of things that money can buy and they start to save and invest. Which is why we have the unique spectacle of a never ending bull run in the stock markets in US with an at best anemic recovery in the real economy. All the money Ben & co pumped in through QE just zipped straight into the bourses; had monetary and fiscal policy been in lock step, it would have had a greater impact on consumption than it has. So, getting back to the point, tax progressively higher income levels at higher tax rates so that govt still has money to spend on the infrastructure that the economy needs, without hurting consumption at the macro level.
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Disparate Times
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Posted: March 26 2016 at 11:59 |
I still am not sold on negative incentives. The idea of punishing those who do well is bad incentive. Though punishing those who don't do so well isn't ok either. Progressively taxing the rich could easily lead to less investment and less employment. I'm all for everyone paying the same %, but with the proper cuts to wasteful spending infrastructure would still be easy to afford.
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Songs are like tightly budgeted meals Nobodies doing anything new or even real
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rogerthat
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Posted: March 26 2016 at 12:06 |
Disparate Times wrote:
I still am not sold on negative incentives. The idea of punishing those who do well is bad incentive. Though punishing those who don't do so well isn't ok either. Progressively taxing the rich could easily lead to less investment and less employment. I'm all for everyone paying the same %, but with the proper cuts to wasteful spending infrastructure would still be easy to afford. |
Only if we are talking about hiking corp tax. That's not on the table anyway. Higher tax on personal income, esp income from return on investment, will not affect investment unless it brings down consumption significantly. And that is not going to happen in a scenario where a huge proportion of the wealth is concentrated in the hands of a very small minority of the population. That scenario describes the situation in not only US but many, many countries across the world today.
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dr wu23
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Posted: March 26 2016 at 12:13 |
How is a higher tax rate punishing those who can afford to pay more...? As it is the rich have multiple ways to avoid paying their fair share currently , while the majority of tax is on the backs of the middle class. That's completely unfair and has been for many decades now. That is what needs to be addressed whomever gets into office.
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
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Disparate Times
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Posted: March 26 2016 at 12:21 |
I agree the current system is completely unfair. Like I said if we all paid the same % that would be fair.
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Songs are like tightly budgeted meals Nobodies doing anything new or even real
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rogerthat
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Posted: March 26 2016 at 22:22 |
dr wu23 wrote:
How is a higher tax rate punishing those who can afford to pay more...? As it is the rich have multiple ways to avoid paying their fair share currently , while the majority of tax is on the backs of the middle class.That's completely unfair and has been for many decades now. That is what needs to be addressed whomever gets into office.
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Not to mention indirect tax (sales tax and the like, to be clear) disproportionately affects the low and middle income groups compared to the rich. In focusing on only direct tax, we miss out what a big chunk of revenue indirect tax is.
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JJLehto
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Posted: March 27 2016 at 02:07 |
rogerthat wrote:
Keynes said govts should run deficits during recessions and run a tight ship during booms. Basically smooth out the cycle. He never said govts should keep expanding deficits to pursue full employment, that was heterodox policy, just like QE. As you say, the monetarists and fiscal conservatives saw a golden opportunity to put the knife in the 70s and ran with it. But at what price? |
Well that was the battle: Was Keynes simply suggesting the short run processes you mention, without drastic change to the orthodox, or did he want to take a hammer to the orthodox and make serious, fundamental changes? I guess it may not matter too much what he felt, why try to interpret and find real intent and etc in Keynes and what he may have meant? Regardless of his beliefs, a school of thought has indeed developed and expanded based on the latter interpretation, with his work as the foundation of course.
I have drifted towards the latter, it took me a long time. It was just too shocking to hear things like "can run full(er) employment without inflation". From all I gather, the counter to deficits in the long run is: With a stronger economy deficits naturally fall/are lessened so it pays for itself to a large extent. I know this is highly unorthodox even among liberals today.
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JJLehto
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Posted: March 27 2016 at 02:16 |
Eh, many Americans do pay little tax. Lower earners I believe are mainly faced with sales taxes and the FICA tax. While the middle and upper middle, even affluent may pay too much...the super rich certainly don't and we gotta remember: cutting taxes just hasn't really lead to growth. They just hoard the money. Way I see it is this:
1: An employer needs jobs to do. Coddle and cut taxes, but if there's simply no work to be done, they wont hire. 2: Wealthy people/households save more and more as they get tax cuts. Lets say they buy Ferraris and yachts and 3 houses, not saying this doesnt help the economy but this isn't super stimulative, especially since Ferrari's are made in Italy  Rich people obviously won't go spending thousands, or millions, more on essentials...and there's also fewer wealthy. I just see no realistic way how tax cuts at top can do much. 3: Investing. I dont know about this, again reality doesn't seem to bare it out and if anything maybe lower taxes encourages wreckless behavior? With so much $ why not toss a bunch into speculation to make tons more! At 50% tax though, may be a lot more careful. Those are some of the typical arguments for tax cuts and none of them really appeal to me.
There's also political issues to keep in mind and like what was discussed above, tooooo much $ concentration can lead to economic issues like sluggish growth, instability etc
Oh, also an idea rarely discussed is the theory that higher taxes on top don't really lead to more redistribution per se, (taking and spending) but that you are less likely to pay yourself 10 mill a year if 70% goes to taxes. So lower earnings to avoid higher taxes, and that $ must go somewhere...invested back into the company. Higher wages, investments internal and external etc I mean, top earnings were far lower in the post WWII days, they started to soar in the 80s. Cant be a coincidence lower taxes correlates with higher pay, and again that $ comes from somewhere, which is the rest of the company/economy.
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