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^ Watch the video or don't ... it's not like you're doing me a favor.
How can a reason be "good" if it requires a leap of faith to accept it? Sorry, but a reason is not "good" just because you say it is. If you like you can watch the video from about 49:00 on, there he talks a bit about religion in general and about typical tricks that religious people - not always intentionally - employ in this kind of discussion.
As I said, I already watched a video of yours and it was nothing but lame strawmen. Even your fellow atheists said so.
Nothing I believe requires a "leap of faith." I've told you what biblical faith is. I believe in the history (much of which can be verified by other sources), the prophecy (which is an objective matter- either Christ fulfilled Hebrew prophecy or he did not), and typology (this is a literary field that has had the most impact on my belief in God).
Joined: April 29 2006
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Posted: December 12 2009 at 07:10
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
6. You shall not commit adultery
Not a law in civilized countries. Although the USA again stand out there if you will, by their civil laws in relation to marriages and divorces.
I do find it a little bit amusing that those in this country who call themselves Christian and wear their religion on their sleeves frequently break that one. By the way there is no commandment against sodomy or homosexuality. Just saying.
Oh yeah, speeding in a school zone is also apparently OK.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted: December 12 2009 at 07:12
I don't know which video you're referring to (in any case it wasn't "mine"), but come on - all these cheap con tricks, I really thought you wanted to discuss things.
And "biblical faith" doesn't just require a leap of faith ... it even requires an ignorance of truth.
No need to watch all of it - only watch from 17:15 to about 22:00. I know that you're not interested in it, but maybe someone else is.
Edited by Mr ProgFreak - December 12 2009 at 07:17
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Posted: December 12 2009 at 07:18
Slartibartfast wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
6. You shall not commit adultery
Not a law in civilized countries. Although the USA again stand out there if you will, by their civil laws in relation to marriages and divorces.
I do find it a little bit amusing that those in this country who call themselves Christian and wear their religion on their sleeves frequently break that one. By the way there is no commandment against sodomy or homosexuality. Just saying.
Oh yeah, speeding in a school zone is also apparently OK.
Those rules must all have been on the third plate that Moses unfortunately dropped.
The video I'm referring to was "Ten questions every Christian must answer" or something to that effect.
There's so many of these damned threads I don't even know which one it was in.
And I don't see why I have to address something about "cheap con tricks." What does that have to do with me and my belief in a materialistic, extra-dimensional deity and the revelation of such in the Bible?
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Posted: December 12 2009 at 07:25
^ now you're playing the "hurt feelings card" ... like Dennett explains in the part of the video that I hinted to (ca. 48:00 onward).
I don't care about your belief. "materialistic" and "extra-dimensional" are mutually exclusive, so your line of argument doesn't even begin to make sense to me. What is offensive to me is that you demand that I respect this belief of yours without asking scientific questions. You really can't give any good reasons for why I should even consider thinking about your position.
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Posted: December 12 2009 at 07:32
The "hurt feelings card" is something that I recognized in some of your posts, but of course more obviously in jampa's posts. It's not so much that someone's in tears and overly emotional, it's more about someone presenting personal opinion as a reason for his or her belief and then being annoyed or irritated when others refuse to take their word for granted.
BTW: About "But nothing you've said puts a dent in mine". Of course that's true, since your position isn't falsifiable. That's why nobody will ever be able to prove you wrong, but it's also why you'll never be able to prove it to be true.
I've cited three areas of study for my belief. Do you need them again?
History, prophecy, and typology.
None of these things are opinions. Nor are any of these things proof. I'm not out to prove anything, but I can provide evidence and reasons. Just because they aren't from the school of science doesn't make them invalid for discussion.
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Posted: December 12 2009 at 07:43
Epignosis wrote:
Where have I given "personal opinion?"
I've cited three areas of study for my belief. Do you need them again?
History, prophecy, and typology.
None of these things are opinions. Nor are any of these things proof. I'm not out to prove anything, but I can provide evidence and reasons. Just because they aren't from the school of science doesn't make them invalid for discussion.
That's where we disagree. Of course I accept history - but the further we go back, the more we'll have to take the reported "facts" with a grain of salt. Especially in the case of the bible, which contains inconsistencies that people who are more knowledgeable on the bible than I could ever be have shown, and which - like shown in the video - also professors of biblical studies teach.
I've cited three areas of study for my belief. Do you need them again?
History, prophecy, and typology.
None of these things are opinions. Nor are any of these things proof. I'm not out to prove anything, but I can provide evidence and reasons. Just because they aren't from the school of science doesn't make them invalid for discussion.
That's where we disagree. Of course I accept history - but the further we go back, the more we'll have to take the reported "facts" with a grain of salt. Especially in the case of the bible, which contains inconsistencies that people who are more knowledgeable on the bible than I could ever be have shown, and which - like shown in the video - also professors of biblical studies teach.
But not prophecy. Either Christ fulfilled ancient prophecy or he did not.
However, I know you aren't interested in that subject, so I believe I can once again safely bow out of the discussion.
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Posted: December 12 2009 at 10:02
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
1. I am the Lord your God 1a. You shall have no other gods before me 1b. You shall not make for yourself an idol 2. You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God
Well, these don't seem like rules that any modern, secular state would enforce as laws.
3. Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy
Some countries enforce the sunday as a day where you're not allowed to work - in Germany there are many exceptions to the rule though. As an atheist I would theoretically try to fight this law because of its religious motivation, but on the other the concept of having a work free day every 7 days is not so bad, and trying to make it the same day of the week for everyone is nice, too, because it enables people to meet with their friends.
4. Honor your father and mother
Again, not something to be enforced by laws.
5. You shall not murder/kill
Now this is of course a law in any modern society. Although it conflicts with capital punishment, which is still carried out in countries like China, Iran or the USA. And even regardless of capital punishment, many countries make exceptions to the rule, for example in self defense, to prevent criminals from killing other people, or during times of war.
6. You shall not commit adultery
Not a law in civilized countries. Although the USA again stand out there if you will, by their civil laws in relation to marriages and divorces.
7. You shall not steal***
Of course that's a rule of law in most countries.
8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor
This is a law in most countries, but depends on the situation (whether you lie in private, in public, to the police or as a witness in a trial).
9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife
That's most definitely not a law in civilized countries.
10. You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor
Not a law.
So ... as far as I see it, only three out of those ten commandments are really reflected by law, and one of those two is not followed through 100%.
Mike, it's a legal text, like it or not, of course he laws have changed, but it's a precedent...Amnd the Supreme Court has changed it's ruling:
The Supreme Court ruled that it was Constitutional to display the Ten Comandments in Texas:
In the Texas case,Van Orden vs. Perry(No. 03-1500), the justices ruled 5-4 that the display was constitutional. Thomas Van Orden, a homeless man and former attorney, had sued the state of Texas to have the monument removed from its spot between Texas' Capitol and Supreme Court building. The 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the display, noting it had secular purposes in teaching about the history of the state's legal system and in honoring the fraternal organization that donated it to the state in 1961.
A majority of the U.S. Supreme Court -- Chief Justice William Rehnquist and associate justices Stephen Breyer, Anthony Kennedy, Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas -- agreed, saying the display does not violate the First Amendment. Viewed along with other monuments on the Texas Capitol grounds, they said, the monument can be seen as primarily an acknowledgement of the role that religion and morality played in the history of Texas.
So.............................
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 12 2009 at 10:04
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Posted: December 12 2009 at 10:26
So what? I said that 3 out of 10 commandments are similar to modern laws in civilized countries. And of course you could always argue that the ten commandments played some role in the historic development of the systems of law, so I wouldn't mind such a monument either, although it would depend on the caption (it should make clear that the legal system is secular).
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Posted: December 12 2009 at 10:33
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
So what? I said that 3 out of 10 commandments are similar to modern laws in civilized countries. And of course you could always argue that the ten commandments played some role in the historic development of the systems of law, so I wouldn't mind such a monument either, although it would depend on the caption (it should make clear that the legal system is secular).
At last we agree in something Mike.
My point is that there are fanatics on both sides:
Trying to ban an official because he's an Atheist is simply stupid and illegal, in the same way banning a monument to a legal system is another extreme of fanatism.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 12 2009 at 10:36
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Posted: December 12 2009 at 10:40
^ I would not want to ban religion from history books ... but you know that I wish it would diminish. Each of the four horsemen (Dawkins, Harris, Dennett, Hitchens) has a slightly different stance, and so do I, but I would happily endorse the following statements:
The world would be better off without religion. It is something we should try to grow out of.
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Posted: December 12 2009 at 10:52
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
^ I would not want to ban religion from history books ... but you know that I wish it would diminish. Each of the four horsemen (Dawkins, Harris, Dennett, Hitchens) has a slightly different stance, and so do I, but I would happily endorse the following statements:
The world would be better off without religion. It is something we should try to grow out of.
I don't think that is an equation I would want to balance, let alone want to prove - while it is a justifiable statement given some of what is enacted in the name of religion, and the tension through-out the world as a result of it - as many have said that is an excuse not a reason, and if the religious excuse wasn't there then people would find someother excuse.
Also, even as an athiest I can recognise the good that religious belief can bring, regardless of the form that religion takes.
Joined: April 27 2004
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Posted: December 12 2009 at 11:06
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
^ I would not want to ban religion from history books ... but you know that I wish it would diminish. Each of the four horsemen (Dawkins, Harris, Dennett, Hitchens) has a slightly different stance, and so do I, but I would happily endorse the following statements:
The world would be better off without religion. It is something we should try to grow out of.
Very tollerant Mike.
Then don't complain when people attack Atheists, "To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."
If a religious person feels attacked, will react, that's natural, some will give arguments, the most radicals will reply with violence, and you are part of it with this kind of statements..
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