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erik neuteboom 
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: July 27 2005 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 7659 |
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 Posted: May 13 2007 at 17:29 |
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Come on Tuxon, I am not asking for a professional level, I am complaining about things as Tony R30 pointed at |
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tuxon
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: September 21 2004 Location: plugged-in Status: Offline Points: 5502 |
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Posted: May 13 2007 at 17:41 |
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I can't conform to general consensus therefor deleted. Edited by tuxon - May 13 2007 at 18:37 |
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I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
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erik neuteboom
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 27 2005 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 7659 |
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Posted: May 13 2007 at 17:47 |
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Of course you can consider Foxtrot as a bad album but you cannot write things like "bad musicianship", that is ridiculous and has nothing to do with me having troubles with people who has another opinion, I have troubles with people who have another opinion without objective conclusions and people who loose themselves in sarcastic and provoking conclusions.
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Tony R
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: July 16 2004 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 11979 |
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Posted: May 13 2007 at 17:49 |
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no its not that....surely one would only suggest that Genesis' musicianship was "poor" if one wanted to angonise people.
Its patently not true and in this case he isnt being "subjective" he is being deliberately provocative....and that would be trolling on the forum.
I do not care if he gives every album 1 star as long as the review is genuine.
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tuxon
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Joined: September 21 2004 Location: plugged-in Status: Offline Points: 5502 |
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Posted: May 13 2007 at 18:00 |
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I can't conform to general consensus therefor deleted. Edited by tuxon - May 13 2007 at 18:37 |
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: July 16 2004 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 11979 |
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Posted: May 13 2007 at 18:10 |
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to suggest that Genesis lack musicianship is provocation, simple as that. The description "good" with regard to Hackett is subjective obviously but I wonder who the people are that dont think Hackett is a good guitarist, maybe Eric can shed light on this, bearing in mind what he does for a living... |
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1800iareyay
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2492 |
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Posted: May 13 2007 at 18:14 |
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to focus on the jab at Genesis in that review is to ignore the extremely poor quality of the rest of the review. He picks 3 songs out, says they're OK, then he begins to elaborate on why he dislikes the other songs, but stops before he truly starts. It's a rubbish review, that's the problem. Who cares if he doesn't think the musicians are all they're cracked up to be (strong arguments can be made to support his decision, but the problem is he didn't provide any)?
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tuxon
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Joined: September 21 2004 Location: plugged-in Status: Offline Points: 5502 |
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Posted: May 13 2007 at 18:16 |
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I can't conform to general consensus therefor deleted. Edited by tuxon - May 13 2007 at 18:36 |
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I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
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erik neuteboom
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 27 2005 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 7659 |
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Posted: May 13 2007 at 18:29 |
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Tuxon, the way you keep on posting concerns me very much, I don't like it at all because you focus on the wrong elements, I stop reacting on your posts because I don't want to feed people who are only eager to provoke and cause irritaton, bey! And ... a big hand for Steve Hackett, master of the volume-pedal and so creative with his hammering down, glissando, using the Roland guitar synthesizer and an excellent balance between warm acoustic pieces and exciting bombastic guitar runs
 Edited by erik neuteboom - May 13 2007 at 18:38 |
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The T
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
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Posted: May 13 2007 at 21:41 |
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Excuse me please, what's the problem with me here? What did I do now?
 I may write long reviews, not perfect reviews, but if you're going to attack me and my reviews, at least have the decency to say what's the problem. What? A little emotional? A little subjective? Of course. I have not reached the level of perfection For someone nearly twice my age, well, you don't show it.
Now, if it's because it's obvious that you and me have absolute different tastes, OK, fine. Don't read them. Probably nobody else does. I don't write them for you. I also don't read reviews by people that I know I don't have anything in common here, or whom I don't respect at all. But try not to attack me in a thread so that my name gets a negative aura... You mention my name here in a negative way, everybody now will associatte me with awful reviews and this discussion... Thank you. Very good Mr. Neuteboom, quite a mature way to act.
"degrading and provoking The T and Progger style" .... Ok, what's degrading? Whom am I degrading?
"I feel a primitive urge to react immediately with a similar negative review about the bands they like and I don't.... until now I managed to handle those feelings, I hope I won't let myself go so when I notice the names like The T and Progger I stop reading, that's the best way for me to avoid more anger and possible negative actions. " Great way of handling things. But even better would be not to talk about people that you despise so much. You fall to their level, which, as we can infer from your words is, according to you, incredibly low. I degrade, I provoke? Fine! If that's so, don't fall to my low-category, don't do that yourself, and, even worse, attacking PERSONS instead of albums...I'm sorry, I think people still deserve more respect than albums....
Again, I have nothing against you and I'm saying these only because you have attacked me in a thread that had nothing to do with me or any of my reviews. Thank you for being such a gentleman.
I'm not complaining, by the way, because you don't like my reviews. Maybe NONE does. I don't care. But try to be better than to attack me in a thread that I happened to read just by chance... If I hadn't, you could've gone on and on bashing me; nobody would've stopped you. If you're goping to attack about me, do it when I have the possibility to at least say a word. Don't fall so low as to talk about people behind their backs, please.
Sorry to anyone who reads this and realizes you're wasted your time reading a non-musical post...
Edited by The T - May 13 2007 at 22:56 |
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The T
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
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Posted: May 13 2007 at 22:33 |
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Sorry to have hijacked this thread again. I just have to clarify: I'm not complaining because Mr. Neuteboom doesn't like nor he reads my reviews. I don't care, and if I did I'd actually be a pathetic, low self-steem wimp. I'm complaining because Mr. Neuteboom thinks is such a special person that he can attack people in un-related threads and give them a bad name. Am I overreacting? What would you think would happen if someone who doesn't know me or my reviews reads that post? He won't think my reviews are bad or biased, he would think I'm, like you say in the ridiculous, euphemistic NET-language, a "troll", an idiot that acts like a brute, a musical-bigot. And why would he get that impression? Because Mr. Neuteboom is so special that he can throw names like he was giving away candy. Sorry Mr. Neuteboom, I repeat, I couldn't care less your opinion on my reviews. But why do you have to mention me when it's not even one of my reviews you're talking about?? A cheap shot the sort of which I've never seen before here. I may not be the greatest human being, but at least I refrain myself of talking about people in open forums, specially when the talk is negative. Everybody else may love and applaud everything you do Mr. Neuteboom, but I don't like when somebody attacks me without even having the courtesy of saying "hey, I said your reviews are provoking and degrading, would you like to say something about it"? Mr. Neuteboom. |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
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Posted: May 13 2007 at 23:40 |
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I always believed that the best way to know if a review meets the standards is dissecting it as a coroner dissects a corpse or as a lawyer analyzes a case, step by step, and even checking the background of the reviewer if it existsthat’s what I will try to do: 1. Progger is a well known Genesis hateboy, he has written wonders as “Hackett could never play in Yes because he doesn’t have the skills”. I can understand that somebody dislikes Hackett’s music but a guy who is praised even by Yehudi Menuhim, can’t be considered unskilled for any Prog band. 2. Progger has been warned a couple of times for writing nonsense posts and even offensive trying to provoke people. 3. Every time Progger is faced with historic quotes, he just abandons the thread and vanishes for several months….This happened less than a month ago, he made a fool of himself in the forum and has started to attack using the reviews that he hates so much. 4. Progger has accused the Owners, Administrators, Collaborators and Members of being corrupt and manipulate the charts, and has even written phrases like “That’s what I say and whoever doesn’t agree, knows nothing about music” So, his behavior is at least suspicious……..But lets go to the review:
It lacks edge, aggressiveness, and musicianship; Please, somebody explain me the meaning of edge in this context, maybe a reference to Close to the Edge. Aggressiveness: Please explain why, which snug is plain and boring, maybe Horizon because it’s not written to be an aggressive song, but I can’t find lack of aggressiveness in Watcher of the Skies, Can-Utility and Supper’s Ready. Musicianship: Why: Probably all could be correct from his perspective BUT THIS IS SOMETHING WE WILL NEVER KNOW BECAUSE HE HASN’T EXPLAINED A SINGLE CONCEPT. and just generally fails consistently to grab my attention. That said, I think 'Foxtrot' is an overated album. Overrated……What a subjective cobncept, all the world likes this album, I don’t so it’s crap. The opener 'Watcher of the Skies' is decent enough, Decent? Again he doesn’t talk about structure, sound, atmosphere, instruments played, influences or anything, just the word “decent” and I do like 'Can Utility and the Coastliners' Bravo, and so????? I like Video Killed the Radio Star but this doesn’t say a word of the album or song. and the brief Hackett acoustic guitar piece that is 'Horizon's' [why the Apostrophe?] CONTRDICTION!!!!!!!! He criticizes the lack of aggressiveness of Foxtrot but likes the less aggressive track?????? None of the other pieces are pleasing to my ears. Ah great, doesn’t please his ears so it must be crap. The lyrics of 'Time Table' would have to be something other than painful. Why are the lyrics in Time Table painful? I see many connections between Time Table and lyrics from songs as “Yours is no Disgrace” by Yes (Who he loves so much) and “Hopelessly Human of Kansas”…..Please explain why painful? And even if they are painful, Why should the lyrics be different? Is he the author? 'Supper's Ready' seems just like a bunch of seperate songs, What’s the problem if the song is a long one or separate in various parts or 20 songs as in Toiommy? and not very good one's either-pasted together on an LP side. Ahh, now I get it, Suppers Ready is not Good according to Progger and????? Why aren’t this “separate songs” not good, do they have a bad structure? The lyrics are poorly written with lack of imagination? The music is poorly played, full of mistakes? Again, this is something we will never know because Mr. Progger has not explained. 'Get em' out by Friday' starts off great but just fizzles out and has an anti-climax ending. Starts good and the finale is anti climatic, we’re talking about one minute at the most, the song lasts 8:34 minutes….What about the other 7:34 minutes? And why is it anti-climatic? Does it fades? Stops to abruptly? Changes the mood from the song? Please EXPLAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not only Genesis fans, any person who knows a bit of music and has read even a mediocre review. So, in conclusion, this is not a review, it’s a collection of attacks against genesis without any argument, explanation and/or coherence. Iván Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 14 2007 at 00:26 |
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005 Location: NE Indiana Status: Offline Points: 28057 |
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Posted: May 13 2007 at 23:48 |
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You're being too critical, Ivan, and I think you're taking some of his comments personally, and they're impersonal by nature (being in a review). It seems to me like you want him to analyze every aspect of the music in microscopic detail. So what if he thinks it's crap? He's allowed to. I think if you re-read your comments on his review, you'll find a lot of your perceptions are irrational.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
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Posted: May 14 2007 at 00:14 |
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Not personally, there are one stars reviews of albums I love that I never said a word.
This review says NOTHING, only he doesn't like Genesis, the song is good or bad but doesn't mention a word about structure, sound, coherence.
He says there's no musicianship.
If I dare to say something like this, the least I can do is explain why I reached this conclusion.
Compare it with:
NOT A SINGLE WORD ABOUT ANY SONG EXCEPT THE NAME AND WHO WROTE IT!!!!
He doesn't even mention Mood for a Day is an acustic guitar solo, where he should had started.
Only cliché phrases like:
This review is no use for anybody exceopt for those who want to know if Progger is a Tes fan or not. If I rate an album with 5 stars, the least I can do is talk about...ANYTHING and not only say Anderson's vocal piece, 'We Have Heaven'', To know that I must only read the credits on the top of the page.
Orcompare it with:
Another 5 stars review with NOTHING about the album...Well he says:
Is this what we want for Prog Archives? Thanks God all of this albums have 200 reviews or more and nobody will ever read Progger's reviews. KEEP THE RATINGS, OK IT'S HIS OPINION....BUT DELETE THE REVIEWS THAT SAY NOTHING.
The last line says it all: An intense album and not easy to digest on first few listens but persevere and you will discover a masterpiece album in the great Yes tradition
This are fanboysh reviews and the previous is a hateboy review it's clear as water.
My two cents
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 14 2007 at 00:25 |
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The T
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
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Posted: May 14 2007 at 00:17 |
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And I was put in this same context? I hope everybody understands my anger about my being mentioned in this thread which, at the time, WAS NOT ABOUT ONE OF MY REVIEWS, by Mr. Neuteboom.
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erik neuteboom
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 27 2005 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 7659 |
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Posted: May 14 2007 at 05:01 |
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Today I got two PM's by The T and half an hour later I realised that I had confused Teaflax and The T because I thought Teaflax had changed his name into The T I was pointing at this review by Teaflax:
Review by Teaflax (John Thelin)
Posted 10:25:32 AM EST, 5/2/2007  That this embarrassment of an album is highly praised by anyone who is not a Metal and Sci Fi-obsessed pimply teenage fanboy is simply inexplicable. It's full of pointless pretention and ludicrous concepts together with some of the worst singwriting Rush have ever committed to vinyl. Yes, this is defintiely where Prog Rush was born, but all the problems of that particular period - and they are legion - are here in full force; heavy-handed experimentation side by side with tired cliché, ludicrously high intellectual ambitions entirely unmet and laughable philosophizing with all the depth of a sun-dried puddle.The Prog period that this ushered in was definitely better on these counts, but this is obviously a faltering step into that area with heart (and brain) still firmly in Hard Rock territory. I believe Rush got better the more they moved away from both these aspects; the stiff virtuosity of their Prog style as well the hackneyed Hard Rock that they started out with, and there's really nothing *but* these two aspects on this album. So, this is one for completionists, Hard rockers or Objectivists. Not for anyone else. SO SORRY THE T, MY WORDS TO YOU WERE MEANT TO TEAFLAX, I APOLOGISE FOR NAMING YOU AND UNDERSTAND WHY YOU FEEL LIKE STABBED IN THE BACK!! |
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Snow Dog
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
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Posted: May 14 2007 at 05:06 |
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Thats a bit of a silly mistake. They are nothing alike post wise, their musical tastes differ enormously, and you could have checked the memberlist.
I'm sure he will understand though.
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The T
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
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Posted: May 14 2007 at 12:22 |
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Man! I was really puzzled because, even though my reviews are not 100% objective (whose are?
) I never thought they were provoking or degrading, and specially seeing my name mentioned when I was not a part of the conversation....OK, no problem then. Thanks for the clarification and no problem here, Mr. Neuteboom.  (just don't ever confuse my magnificent T with T-eaflax again please.... )
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Snow Dog
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
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Posted: May 14 2007 at 12:37 |
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Actually...you do have something in common.
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The T
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
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Posted: May 14 2007 at 12:40 |
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But there's the article "THE" to differentiate the provoking reviewer of the MasTer..
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tuxon wrote:
Whether Banks and Collins are the greatest is irrelevant, their musical accomplishments and recognition from their peers, Hackett too, point to the fact that they arent "poor" musicians.....
First of all, it must be known that aside from the first disc of 'The Lamb', Genesis' music does practically nothing for me.
Review | 
This album really did mark the 'golden era' of Yes. With Rick Wakeman now on board, the jigsaw puzzle and Jon Anderson's masterplan was complete. 'Fragile' is an essential release and everyone should own it whether a prog lover or not. Fragile is interesting in that each member has an individual piece of music. Wakeman's 'Cans & Brahms' with it's classical approach, Anderson's vocal piece, 'We Have Heaven'', Bruford's ''Five % of nothing'', Squire's ''The Fish''' which would be the centre of his solo stage spot for years to come & Howe's beautiful ''Mood For The Day'', again a staple stage favourite for years to come. Then there is the classic's ''Roundabout'',the majestic ''Heart of the Sunrise'' & the albums best song ''South side of the Sky'' & of course ''Long Distance Runaround''.