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projeKct ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Errors & Omissions Team Joined: November 03 2013 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 2934 |
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^ Thanks Mayer, both done.
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NotAProghead ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Errors & Omissions Team Joined: October 22 2005 Location: Russia Status: Offline Points: 7935 |
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I hope in the future the norm will be what was usually the norm and this current Wiki route will be remembered only as an outdated fashion.
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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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nick_h_nz ![]() Collaborator ![]() ![]() Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team Joined: March 01 2013 Location: Suffolk, UK Status: Offline Points: 6737 |
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Ok, now that is the most transphobic thing yet. Until now, what you’ve said I haven’t been offended by, because it is basically the same as systemic and institutionalised racism. A lot of people are not racist in deliberate way, shape or form, and would be horrified to know that so,w things they say are racist. They don’t realise they are racist, because racism has been systemic and institutionalised for so long. I don’t for a minute think you are deliberately transphobic, but what you’ve just said is actually quite disgusting, if you step back and think about it. You can call me woke or whatever you like, but it doesn’t take away from what you’ve just said. Every individual has the right to be seen as the individual they are. Just because someone has been unable to live their entire life as who they truly are, does not mean they wouldn’t have if they had been able to. The Wiki route is actually a safe compromise. If the future brings any new norm at all, it will most definitely NOT be a return to what was the norm. You are quite correct to think that the Wiki route might become an outdated fashion, and many trans advocates hope for this in the same way you do (albeit for quite different reasons). But the only outdated fashion at the moment, is the one which you want to maintain. The stigma over gender change in the Western world will eventually lessen, and it is really only that stigma that makes people persist in thinking it is necessary to maintain a dead name. A name that the person never really felt comfortable with, even while they had it. If you wish to be a dinosaur, I am not going to stop you. In fact, as I have already said, I expect it of PA, and that was why I was so pleasantly surprised that Cristi did the right thing without question or thought. His response to me, was the perfect response. Sites like RYM which are already seen by many as “better” than PA have already made the leap. Their database rules clearly state that dead names should be expunged unless the artist has otherwise approved their existence, and that releases under their dead name should be replaced by their new name. When queried about how far they would they be willing to take this, because so far they have not really made changes for any “big” names. The answer has been that their policy is the same across the board, no matter how big the name. PA can choose to remain outdated (and let’s face it, by its design, it is already outdated compared to other databases, simply because of the way it is built, which doesn’t enable changes which might be beneficial such as genres by album, rather than artist), and it really won’t surprise me if it does (as your response here has shown), or it can choose to change with the times. |
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progaardvark ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Crossover/Symphonic/RPI Teams Joined: June 14 2007 Location: Sea of Peas Status: Offline Points: 52602 |
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I think this is an appropriate way to handle this. Given that PA is only recording albums at the title level and not at the issue/edition level, the name the artist currently uses ought to be used. If we were cataloging this at the issue level (a record for each edition of a title), older editions would contain the former dead name and that would have to be recorded as it appears on the item (one could also add a bracketed qualifier next to the name [now known as ...]), and newer editions would contain the new name and it would be recorded as such. The way to tie these older and newer editions together under the new name is by having the older name link to the new name using authority control (something that is way beyond the PA database's abilities). In library land (which is where my job is), this is how we currently handle older and newer editions where the name goes through changes. We've actually had these rules in place for well over a century in the library world. It's common among divorcees.
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i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
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nick_h_nz ![]() Collaborator ![]() ![]() Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team Joined: March 01 2013 Location: Suffolk, UK Status: Offline Points: 6737 |
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Yes, this is exactly what I mean. We are not Discogs, and we don’t need to say which issue of which release has which name. This is what I called the Wiki route, and it seems the most ideal way for PA to deal with this. |
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suitkees ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 9050 |
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^ Well, that depends on the ambitions PA has: does it want to be a catalogue that doesn't depend on politically correct issues at a given point of time or does it want to go with the flow... I mean, a serious database doesn't give a damn about sexual, political, biological, animal, or whatever kind of preferences or norms. It has to be a-historic and a-political, the main objective being: does the person who consults the database can retrieve the data she/he is looking for. When you're leaving out data out of political correctness or for whatever reason, it will be more difficult to retrieve the data one's looking for. So, what is the function of PA's database? You have made your choice, but I'm not sure PA, as such, has a clear standpoint about it. From my, archival/cataloguing, point of view, PA should include all names that have been attached to productions. If, as consequence, you consider me transphobic, then I think (and I personally know) you're wrong.
Edited by suitkees - May 21 2022 at 12:42 |
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
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Cristi ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Crossover / Prog Metal Teams Joined: July 27 2006 Location: wonderland Status: Online Points: 45641 |
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^ can we move on and get the thread back on topic, I think this conversation, if necessary and desired, could be held elsewhere.
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suitkees ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 9050 |
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^ True. But since the PA owners excel in absence and don't seem to give a damn about how the PA database evolves, I don't think there's a point to creating a specific thread about it.
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
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nick_h_nz ![]() Collaborator ![]() ![]() Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team Joined: March 01 2013 Location: Suffolk, UK Status: Offline Points: 6737 |
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Of course it doesn’t make you transphobic, because it is what has already been proposed. That is that for albums where the dead name was the original name in the credits for the original release, then I would expect to see “Name (formerly known as/originally known on this release as [desd name] - role played as a member”. The dead name would obviously not be needed for any releases which carried credits for the name by which the person now wishes to be known. |
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mbzr48 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Discography Auditor Joined: February 11 2011 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2158 |
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http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=57278
EP not studio
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Cristi ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Crossover / Prog Metal Teams Joined: July 27 2006 Location: wonderland Status: Online Points: 45641 |
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ok, fixed!
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Gordy ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Folk/Eclectic/PSIKE/Metal/Post/Math Team Joined: January 25 2007 Location: US Status: Offline Points: 4332 |
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As much as I hate to suggest this, we should probably update the Klaus Schulze, Vangelis and Peter Frohmader biographies to reflect their recent passing.
Edited by Gordy - May 22 2022 at 10:34 |
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NotAProghead ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Errors & Omissions Team Joined: October 22 2005 Location: Russia Status: Offline Points: 7935 |
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^ Sad but true.
![]() Thanks, done.
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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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NotAProghead ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Errors & Omissions Team Joined: October 22 2005 Location: Russia Status: Offline Points: 7935 |
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But all SYNAESTHESIA / KYROS releases contain now only new name. Would you (or Cristi) like to rearrange them the way you'd expect?
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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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Cristi ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Crossover / Prog Metal Teams Joined: July 27 2006 Location: wonderland Status: Online Points: 45641 |
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I'll say it again. Can we move on, all releases on bandcamp have the name Shelby Logan Warne. I've done nothing wrong.
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NotAProghead ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Errors & Omissions Team Joined: October 22 2005 Location: Russia Status: Offline Points: 7935 |
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^ Oh my God! Bandcamp is not the whole world, for example this release on Discogs mentions Adam Warne. Obviously you can't replace the name on all possible resources.
Even nick_h_nz writes: for albums where the dead name was the original name in the credits for the original release, then I would expect to see “Name (formerly known as/originally known on this release as [dead name] - role played as a member” I can onlly add that usually on newer re-releases we see it in a slightly different order, i.e. Dead name (now New name) - role.
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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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Cristi ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Crossover / Prog Metal Teams Joined: July 27 2006 Location: wonderland Status: Online Points: 45641 |
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I don't see the controversy here, if I saw any, I wouldn't have changed the name. I honestly already regret it. I won't do it anymore. And here I (naively) thought I was helping.
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NotAProghead ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Errors & Omissions Team Joined: October 22 2005 Location: Russia Status: Offline Points: 7935 |
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^ What does it mean "I thought I was helping"? You're a member of Crossover team and the band on PA belongs to this genre. I think in this case you're a bit more than just a helper.
In my opinion it would be fair if everyone would fix his own let's say (for the lack of a better word) imperfect changes. Am I wrong?
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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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Cristi ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Crossover / Prog Metal Teams Joined: July 27 2006 Location: wonderland Status: Online Points: 45641 |
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So editing a line-up is not helping? Why are we still having this conversation? What is the mistake that I made? What is the best resource of the band's line-up? (If not their official site and bandcamp). |
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nick_h_nz ![]() Collaborator ![]() ![]() Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team Joined: March 01 2013 Location: Suffolk, UK Status: Offline Points: 6737 |
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You’ve made absolutely no mistake, Cristi. Thank you for your help.
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