Forum Home Forum Home > Site News, Newbies, Help and Improvements > Report errors & omissions here
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - ERRORS THREAD Report Errors and Omissions Here
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

ERRORS THREAD Report Errors and Omissions Here

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 380381382383384 523>
Author
Message
projeKct View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Errors & Omissions Team

Joined: November 03 2013
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 2934
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote projeKct Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2022 at 14:43
^ Thanks Mayer, both done.
Back to Top
NotAProghead View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Errors & Omissions Team

Joined: October 22 2005
Location: Russia
Status: Offline
Points: 7935
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NotAProghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2022 at 16:20
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

I know that it what you tried to say. And, sorry, it is transphobia. It is understandable, and I get where you are coming from. But in the future, the norm will be the Wiki route, and I think that is the route that PA should take.

I hope in the future the norm will be what was usually the norm and this current Wiki route will be remembered only as an outdated fashion. Smile
Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
Back to Top
nick_h_nz View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team

Joined: March 01 2013
Location: Suffolk, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 6737
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2022 at 23:58
Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

I know that it what you tried to say. And, sorry, it is transphobia. It is understandable, and I get where you are coming from. But in the future, the norm will be the Wiki route, and I think that is the route that PA should take.

I hope in the future the norm will be what was usually the norm and this current Wiki route will be remembered only as an outdated fashion. Smile

Ok, now that is the most transphobic thing yet. Until now, what you’ve said I haven’t been offended by, because it is basically the same as systemic and institutionalised racism. A lot of people are not racist in deliberate way, shape or form, and would be horrified to know that so,w things they say are racist. They don’t realise they are racist, because racism has been systemic and institutionalised for so long.

I don’t for a minute think you are deliberately transphobic, but what you’ve just said is actually quite disgusting, if you step back and think about it. You can call me woke or whatever you like, but it doesn’t take away from what you’ve just said.

Every individual has the right to be seen as the individual they are. Just because someone has been unable to live their entire life as who they truly are, does not mean they wouldn’t have if they had been able to.

The Wiki route is actually a safe compromise. If the future brings any new norm at all, it will most definitely NOT be a return to what was the norm. You are quite correct to think that the Wiki route might become an outdated fashion, and many trans advocates hope for this in the same way you do (albeit for quite different reasons). But the only outdated fashion at the moment, is the one which you want to maintain.

The stigma over gender change in the Western world will eventually lessen, and it is really only that stigma that makes people persist in thinking it is necessary to maintain a dead name. A name that the person never really felt comfortable with, even while they had it.

If you wish to be a dinosaur, I am not going to stop you. In fact, as I have already said, I expect it of PA, and that was why I was so pleasantly surprised that Cristi did the right thing without question or thought. His response to me, was the perfect response. Sites like RYM which are already seen by many as “better” than PA have already made the leap. Their database rules clearly state that dead names should be expunged unless the artist has otherwise approved their existence, and that releases under their dead name should be replaced by their new name. When queried about how far they would they be willing to take this, because so far they have not really made changes for any “big” names. The answer has been that their policy is the same across the board, no matter how big the name.

PA can choose to remain outdated (and let’s face it, by its design, it is already outdated compared to other databases, simply because of the way it is built, which doesn’t enable changes which might be beneficial such as genres by album, rather than artist), and it really won’t surprise me if it does (as your response here has shown), or it can choose to change with the times.

Back to Top
progaardvark View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Crossover/Symphonic/RPI Teams

Joined: June 14 2007
Location: Sea of Peas
Status: Offline
Points: 52602
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote progaardvark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2022 at 06:50
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

So that would mean that you would put in the credits for an album where the dead name was originally used as New Name (formerly known as Dead Name) - Instrument played. Anything else is, whether you are aware of it being so or not, transphobic.

I think this is an appropriate way to handle this. Given that PA is only recording albums at the title level and not at the issue/edition level, the name the artist currently uses ought to be used. 

If we were cataloging this at the issue level (a record for each edition of a title), older editions would contain the former dead name and that would have to be recorded as it appears on the item (one could also add a bracketed qualifier next to the name [now known as ...]), and newer editions would contain the new name and it would be recorded as such. The way to tie these older and newer editions together under the new name is by having the older name link to the new name using authority control (something that is way beyond the PA database's abilities). In library land (which is where my job is), this is how we currently handle older and newer editions where the name goes through changes. We've actually had these rules in place for well over a century in the library world. It's common among divorcees. 
----------
i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag
that's a happy bag of lettuce
this car smells like cartilage
nothing beats a good video about fractions
Back to Top
nick_h_nz View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team

Joined: March 01 2013
Location: Suffolk, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 6737
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2022 at 12:38
Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

So that would mean that you would put in the credits for an album where the dead name was originally used as New Name (formerly known as Dead Name) - Instrument played. Anything else is, whether you are aware of it being so or not, transphobic.

I think this is an appropriate way to handle this. Given that PA is only recording albums at the title level and not at the issue/edition level, the name the artist currently uses ought to be used. 

If we were cataloging this at the issue level (a record for each edition of a title), older editions would contain the former dead name and that would have to be recorded as it appears on the item (one could also add a bracketed qualifier next to the name [now known as ...]), and newer editions would contain the new name and it would be recorded as such. The way to tie these older and newer editions together under the new name is by having the older name link to the new name using authority control (something that is way beyond the PA database's abilities). In library land (which is where my job is), this is how we currently handle older and newer editions where the name goes through changes. We've actually had these rules in place for well over a century in the library world. It's common among divorcees. 

Yes, this is exactly what I mean. We are not Discogs, and we don’t need to say which issue of which release has which name. This is what I called the Wiki route, and it seems the most ideal way for PA to deal with this.

Back to Top
suitkees View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 19 2020
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 9050
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2022 at 12:40
^ Well, that depends on the ambitions PA has: does it want to be a catalogue that doesn't depend on politically correct issues at a given point of time or does it want to go with the flow...
I mean, a serious database doesn't give a damn about sexual, political, biological, animal, or whatever kind of preferences or norms. It has to be a-historic and a-political, the main objective being: does the person who consults the database can retrieve the data she/he is looking for. When you're leaving out data out of political correctness or for whatever reason, it will be more difficult to retrieve the data one's looking for. So, what is the function of PA's database? You have made your choice, but I'm not sure PA, as such, has a clear standpoint about it.

From my, archival/cataloguing, point of view, PA should include all names that have been attached to productions. If, as consequence, you consider me transphobic, then I think (and I personally know) you're wrong.


Edited by suitkees - May 21 2022 at 12:42

The razamataz is a pain in the bum
Back to Top
Cristi View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Crossover / Prog Metal Teams

Joined: July 27 2006
Location: wonderland
Status: Online
Points: 45641
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2022 at 12:48
^ can we move on and get the thread back on topic, I think this conversation, if necessary and desired, could be held elsewhere. 


Back to Top
suitkees View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 19 2020
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 9050
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2022 at 13:09
^ True. But since the PA owners excel in absence and don't seem to give a damn about how the PA database evolves, I don't think there's a point to creating a specific thread about it.

The razamataz is a pain in the bum
Back to Top
nick_h_nz View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team

Joined: March 01 2013
Location: Suffolk, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 6737
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2022 at 13:13
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

From my, archival/cataloguing, point of view, PA should include all names that have been attached to productions. If, as consequence, you consider me transphobic, then I think (and I personally know) you're wrong.

Of course it doesn’t make you transphobic, because it is what has already been proposed. That is that for albums where the dead name was the original name in the credits for the original release, then I would expect to see “Name (formerly known as/originally known on this release as [desd name] - role played as a member”. The dead name would obviously not be needed for any releases which carried credits for the name by which the person now wishes to be known.

Back to Top
mbzr48 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
Discography Auditor

Joined: February 11 2011
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 2158
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbzr48 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2022 at 09:39
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=57278

EP not studio
Back to Top
Cristi View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Crossover / Prog Metal Teams

Joined: July 27 2006
Location: wonderland
Status: Online
Points: 45641
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2022 at 09:43
Originally posted by mbzr48 mbzr48 wrote:

http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=57278

EP not studio

ok, fixed!
Back to Top
Gordy View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Folk/Eclectic/PSIKE/Metal/Post/Math Team

Joined: January 25 2007
Location: US
Status: Offline
Points: 4332
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Gordy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2022 at 10:33
As much as I hate to suggest this, we should probably update the Klaus Schulze, Vangelis and Peter Frohmader biographies to reflect their recent passing.

Edited by Gordy - May 22 2022 at 10:34
Back to Top
NotAProghead View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Errors & Omissions Team

Joined: October 22 2005
Location: Russia
Status: Offline
Points: 7935
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NotAProghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2022 at 13:42
^ Sad but true. Cry
Thanks, done.
Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
Back to Top
NotAProghead View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Errors & Omissions Team

Joined: October 22 2005
Location: Russia
Status: Offline
Points: 7935
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NotAProghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2022 at 13:48
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

That is that for albums where the dead name was the original name in the credits for the original release, then I would expect to see “Name (formerly known as/originally known on this release as [desd name] - role played as a member”. The dead name would obviously not be needed for any releases which carried credits for the name by which the person now wishes to be known.

But all SYNAESTHESIA / KYROS releases contain now only new name.
Would you (or Cristi) like to rearrange them the way you'd expect? Wink
Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
Back to Top
Cristi View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Crossover / Prog Metal Teams

Joined: July 27 2006
Location: wonderland
Status: Online
Points: 45641
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2022 at 13:59
Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

That is that for albums where the dead name was the original name in the credits for the original release, then I would expect to see “Name (formerly known as/originally known on this release as [desd name] - role played as a member”. The dead name would obviously not be needed for any releases which carried credits for the name by which the person now wishes to be known.

But all SYNAESTHESIA / KYROS releases contain now only new name.
Would you (or Cristi) like to rearrange them the way you'd expect? Wink

I'll say it again.
Can we move on, all releases on bandcamp have the name Shelby Logan Warne. I've done nothing wrong. 
Back to Top
NotAProghead View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Errors & Omissions Team

Joined: October 22 2005
Location: Russia
Status: Offline
Points: 7935
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NotAProghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2022 at 14:16
^ Oh my God! Bandcamp is not the whole world, for example this release on Discogs mentions Adam Warne. Obviously you can't replace the name on all possible resources.

Even nick_h_nz writes: 
for albums where the dead name was the original name in the credits for the original release, then I would expect to see “Name (formerly known as/originally known on this release as [dead name] - role played as a member

I can onlly add that usually on newer re-releases we see it in a slightly different order, i.e. Dead name (now New name) - role
Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
Back to Top
Cristi View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Crossover / Prog Metal Teams

Joined: July 27 2006
Location: wonderland
Status: Online
Points: 45641
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2022 at 14:19
Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

^ Oh my God! Bandcamp is not the whole world, for example this release on Discogs mentions Adam Warne. Obviously you can't replace the name on all possible resources.

Even nick_h_nz writes: 
for albums where the dead name was the original name in the credits for the original release, then I would expect to see “Name (formerly known as/originally known on this release as [dead name] - role played as a member

I can onlly add that usually on newer re-releases we see it in a slightly different order, i.e. Dead name (now New name) - role

I don't see the controversy here, if I saw any, I wouldn't have changed the name. I honestly already regret it. I won't do it anymore. And here I (naively) thought I was helping. 
Back to Top
NotAProghead View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Errors & Omissions Team

Joined: October 22 2005
Location: Russia
Status: Offline
Points: 7935
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NotAProghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2022 at 14:38
^ What does it mean "I thought I was helping"? You're a member of Crossover team and the band on PA belongs to this genre. I think in this case you're a bit more than just a helper.

In my opinion it would be fair if everyone would fix his own let's say (for the lack of a better word) imperfect changes. 

Am I wrong?
Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
Back to Top
Cristi View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Crossover / Prog Metal Teams

Joined: July 27 2006
Location: wonderland
Status: Online
Points: 45641
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2022 at 14:42
Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

^ What does it mean "I thought I was helping"? You're a member of Crossover team and the band on PA belongs to this genre. I think in this case you're a bit more than just a helper.

In my opinion it would be fair if everyone would fix his own let's say (for the lack of a better word) imperfect changes. 

Am I wrong?

So editing a line-up is not helping? 
Why are we still having this conversation? 
What is the mistake that I made? 
What is the best resource of the band's line-up? (If not their official site and bandcamp). 


Back to Top
nick_h_nz View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team

Joined: March 01 2013
Location: Suffolk, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 6737
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2022 at 14:53
You’ve made absolutely no mistake, Cristi. Thank you for your help.

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 380381382383384 523>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.461 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.