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Topic ClosedThe Theist - Agnostic - Atheist Poll
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Poll Question: What are you?
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46 [54.12%]
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jampa17 View Drop Down
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Points: 6802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 09:09
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ do you think that there is no coincidence at all ... that everything happens for a reason or with a purpose?
 
I don't believe in coincidence... at all... yes... everything happens for a reason... yes... maybe it's a little more complicated, I know you will not agree with me but this is it... the things and situation that you don't have control over it, is set up... and you can decide which way to go in that particular set up... I think that God knows well which way we will choose, but even he aloud us and give us freedom to choose... so, yes... everything happens according to the Masterplan... not the one of Oasis though... LOL
Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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Points: 6802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 09:17
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by jampa17 jampa17 wrote:

 
Look Dean, I know you are the master of science around these places as Rob is in Bible knowledge, so, I know I can argue when I understand the half of what you are posting -I'm trying really, but it's a little tough- and I really don't know if you will understand me but, science is a growing thing, you don't know if we are getting close and suddenly we discover that when we die we become part of the light... there's a theory about that... I heard two physics talk about it, about all that witnessing of near to death phenomena, that all persons that have lived it claim that they saw a great light infront of them... well, this physics believes that if there's a soul maybe when we die their soul or essence of whatever accelerates into the speed of light and joins with God, because God is the light... I know... It doesn't sounds that convincent but I can assure you this guys really were talking with some formulas and all the stuff... of course I'm not telling the thing accurate but I'm a journalist not a scientist... so... My point is that if you only denied what science has not reach to tell of, I think is better to give the benefit of doubt don't you think...
Near death experiences are not death, whatever happens to the human brain when restricted of oxygen and blood are the subject of hallucination and dream-states, this is a known (and dangerous) phenomena (eg. erotic asphyxiation). I'm not holding my breath in the hope that this will scientifically prove an afterlife. Wink
 
Now you are guessing... so... I wasn't saying that I believe it... just putting out something that science could explore better to discover something else... I undertand your point and I'm with you that paranormal phenomena, if there's no physical proof or some kind of recording or documentation of the matter it can't be study properly... but it doesn't mean that we have to discount it... but you are already giving excuses about that particular event, just as I said just above your post about God giving proof of his existence...
Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 09:23
^^ I don't understand though how we could both have freedom of choice and only act as pawns in God's masterplan at the same time. It seems much more likely to me that there is no masterplan and things happen by chance, than to assume that God has a plan and still so many bad things happen to good people.

http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=82312

What would be the reason for that? I know, "God moves in mysterious ways". But you have to admit that my response to that "That sounds like a lame excuse" makes (common) sense.


Edited by Mr ProgFreak - January 06 2010 at 09:23
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jampa17 View Drop Down
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Points: 6802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 09:27
It's all in impression and personal beliefs... dude... for you is a lame excuse, as well as for me to call anyone deluded or explain some events or experiences as collective delussions and all that don't you think...??? because now we are talking about what seems to have more sense (and that's more subjective than anything...) now... that's why I told you that I was sure you won't understand... it's not like we are puppets on his hands... we have the chance to choose, always, to do bad or good but basically to do anything we want... but we are free... we have options... if God knows us and already knew what we will do... well... that do not limit you on your freedom...
Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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Epignosis View Drop Down
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 09:28
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^^ I don't understand though how we could both have freedom of choice and only act as pawns in God's masterplan at the same time.


Maybe you don't have freedom of choice.  Wink
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 09:32
^ that's an age old philosophical question ... looking at the legal systems all over the world, I think that it's safe to assume that believers and nonbelievers alike support the notion that we do have freedom of choice.
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 09:32
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ that's an age old philosophical question ... looking at the legal systems all over the world, I think that it's safe to assume that believers and nonbelievers alike support the notion that we do have freedom of choice.


Of course, I do believe in freedom of choice, but I believe in complete materialistic determinism as well.
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 09:35
^ Yesterday I watch a Dennett talk about free will ... I'm well aware of the intricacies of the problem. Big smile

Edited by Mr ProgFreak - January 06 2010 at 09:37
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Epignosis View Drop Down
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 09:36
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ Yesterday I watch a Dennett talk about Free Will ... I'm well aware of the intricacies of the problem. Big smile


He's the best person I've ever read with respect to the subject.
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Padraic View Drop Down
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 09:37
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^^ I don't understand though how we could both have freedom of choice and only act as pawns in God's masterplan at the same time.


Maybe you don't have freedom of choice.  Wink


We sure as hell don't - we're married.  Wink
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 09:39
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^^ I don't understand though how we could both have freedom of choice and only act as pawns in God's masterplan at the same time.


Maybe you don't have freedom of choice.  Wink


We sure as hell don't - we're married.  Wink


And somehow we're still morally responsible for our shortcomings!  Ouch
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 09:42
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ that's an age old philosophical question ... looking at the legal systems all over the world, I think that it's safe to assume that believers and nonbelievers alike support the notion that we do have freedom of choice.


Of course, I do believe in freedom of choice, but I believe in complete materialistic determinism as well.


Why are you wasting our time posting questions like "Suppose you don't have freedom of choice?"
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 09:44
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ that's an age old philosophical question ... looking at the legal systems all over the world, I think that it's safe to assume that believers and nonbelievers alike support the notion that we do have freedom of choice.


Of course, I do believe in freedom of choice, but I believe in complete materialistic determinism as well.


Why are you wasting our time posting questions like "Suppose you don't have freedom of choice?"


I didn't have a choice.  DisapproveWink




Wasting time...hell, Mike, lighten up. 
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 09:46
^ I'm quite "lightened up" ... I'm merely demonstrating your inconsistency. Lots of people here are scrutinizing my posts for inconsistencies, and sometimes I do the same.Smile
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 09:49
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ I'm quite "lightened up" ... I'm merely demonstrating your inconsistency. Lots of people here are scrutinizing my posts for inconsistencies, and sometimes I do the same.Smile


How was I inconsistent?  Confused
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Padraic View Drop Down
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 09:50
Rob and I will be coming to visit you soon Mike, to have these discussions face-to-face.

Oh, I'm not contributing anything.  I'm just along for the beer.
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 09:52
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Rob and I will be coming to visit you soon Mike, to have these discussions face-to-face.

Oh, I'm not contributing anything.  I'm just along for the beer.


The ancient Sumerians didn't call it "the divine drink" for nothing!  Big smile
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Points: 89372 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 09:56
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Originally posted by James James wrote:

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Originally posted by James James wrote:

I'm an Atheist but don't use that term myself as I feel using a term for a non-belief is akin to a Religion/Philosophy.

I do not need to prove God does not exist.  I know it does not.  I also do not mean the normal view of God.  I mean all forms.

I have lived 29 years perfectly fine without any need for religion and I am happy being this way.


If you really say "I know that God does not exist" then it does sound like strong faith (as Carl Sagan defined faith: belief in the absence of evidence).

I recommend you watch the video I posted in the other thread ... you might find it interesting.Smile


It isn't faith.
It's Common Sense and Clear Thinking.

I cannot even comprehend anything else being true.


How do you *know* that there isn't a god that simply hides and does not interfere with the natural order of the universe?


I don't need to know.  It's common sense to me that there isn't such a being.

Besides, if that is what you say, then aren't most of us Gods?  I don't interfere with the natural order of the Universe (much), does that make me (a) God?
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Padraic View Drop Down
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 09:58
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
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Points: 1009 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2010 at 09:59
What's the point of being God if you can't interfere with the natural order of the universe? I think it would get terribly boring.  And with a few divine beers under the belt there's no telling what might happen.  Miracles Pfff.    LOL

Edited by Trademark - January 06 2010 at 10:03
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