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Logan View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2016 at 14:16
I understood you.

Yes, same with me. I was echoing what the types who support ISIS want in their concept of global domination. I have many friends who consider themselves to be Moslem (mostly their parents were fleeing the Iranian revolution) and are terrified by groups like IS, and of course the Ayatollah-type supporters. There is a lot of sectarian violence and violence from extremist-type groups against Moslems who do not accept their particular vision of Islam, do not follow their rules strictly enough, or accept that group's political authority

That said, I have read the Qura'n and Hadith and understand why political groups like IS feel they can justify their actions, and why many support their views and actions, even if perverse.

Edited by Logan - June 03 2016 at 14:21
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2016 at 14:48
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

 
My clarification is in my post above, but I wasn't advocating that we ban religion even though some "religions" are banned in some Western countries and others are not recognized by the state. I did say that government must be intrusive when it comes to issues of religion. I think that people should be free to think what they like (or what they are inculcated with), but not necessarily to act on those beliefs even if the religious text/ dogma calls them to such action.

Oh, this I can agree with. I wouldn't call it "against freedom of religion" but more like "against religious beliefs trumping all/reason". It's the same idiotic excuse legislators use to come up with these stupid discriminatory bills against LGBT: "oh, the poor religious beliefs of this person are offended if he's forced to assist [LGBT]". It's the same idiocy that you describe about medicines and stupid parents who let their children die out of pure ignorant irrationality. 

I can agree with you on this. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2016 at 15:45
America's true national religion is work, and therefore business.  For another group or religion to want that eradicated is no better than Americans who are anti-Islamist or anti-Semitic.  Culturicide is a bad idea that doesn't work and causes enormous suffering, and that's what the world has to realize. 

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2016 at 20:54
Originally posted by emigre80 emigre80 wrote:

China and many east Asian economies did well by screwing their workers over completely, not by not being dogmatic about economics.  When you have a labor force that's one step above "slave" there's no need to be dogmatic about anything. You will make money.

Have you actually asked them whether this was the case?  Sorry but this is simply something that Westerners repeat without realizing that it is not THAT different from how factories worked in the West before the advent of unionism and most probably a good deal better.  If today the Chinese currency were indeed revalued as America keeps asking them to, it would not be very long before even the nominal GDP of China surpasses America (it is already higher in PPP terms).  Further, East Asia also includes Japan and South Korea who have worked hard to match up to the quality standards in Europe and America.  They too have a sort of oligarchic system, but they tightly protect their own domestic market.  This is where NAFTA got it totally wrong and was clearly an example of overenthusiastic deregulation.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2016 at 21:38
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

We are not having growing pains, we are having fundamental political and social pains, as are most Western democracies.

Steve, I believe your growing pains occurred around the time of the "Rump Parliament". Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2016 at 22:22
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by emigre80 emigre80 wrote:

China and many east Asian economies did well by screwing their workers over completely, not by not being dogmatic about economics.  When you have a labor force that's one step above "slave" there's no need to be dogmatic about anything. You will make money.

Have you actually asked them whether this was the case?  Sorry but this is simply something that Westerners repeat without realizing that it is not THAT different from how factories worked in the West before the advent of unionism and most probably a good deal better.  If today the Chinese currency were indeed revalued as America keeps asking them to, it would not be very long before even the nominal GDP of China surpasses America (it is already higher in PPP terms).  Further, East Asia also includes Japan and South Korea who have worked hard to match up to the quality standards in Europe and America.  They too have a sort of oligarchic system, but they tightly protect their own domestic market.  This is where NAFTA got it totally wrong and was clearly an example of overenthusiastic deregulation.
 
It isn't that much different from how factories worked in the West before the advent of unionism. My point is that paying workers as little as possible is a great way to make money and make your economy grow fast - because you can sell a whole lot of stuff and undercut economies that pay better wages. I was mainly speaking about China, but I believe that other East Asian countries (Indonesia, for example) also exploit their workers. Since many of the goods produced there wind up here, I think we in the West should take a lot of blame for social conditions we perpetuate.
 
I'm not sure what that has to do with the Chinese revaluing their currency. You kind of lost me in that argument.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2016 at 22:35
Originally posted by emigre80 emigre80 wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by emigre80 emigre80 wrote:

China and many east Asian economies did well by screwing their workers over completely, not by not being dogmatic about economics.  When you have a labor force that's one step above "slave" there's no need to be dogmatic about anything. You will make money.

Have you actually asked them whether this was the case?  Sorry but this is simply something that Westerners repeat without realizing that it is not THAT different from how factories worked in the West before the advent of unionism and most probably a good deal better.  If today the Chinese currency were indeed revalued as America keeps asking them to, it would not be very long before even the nominal GDP of China surpasses America (it is already higher in PPP terms).  Further, East Asia also includes Japan and South Korea who have worked hard to match up to the quality standards in Europe and America.  They too have a sort of oligarchic system, but they tightly protect their own domestic market.  This is where NAFTA got it totally wrong and was clearly an example of overenthusiastic deregulation.
 
It isn't that much different from how factories worked in the West before the advent of unionism. My point is that paying workers as little as possible is a great way to make money and make your economy grow fast - because you can sell a whole lot of stuff and undercut economies that pay better wages. I was mainly speaking about China, but I believe that other East Asian countries (Indonesia, for example) also exploit their workers. Since many of the goods produced there wind up here, I think we in the West should take a lot of blame for social conditions we perpetuate.
 
I'm not sure what that has to do with the Chinese revaluing their currency. You kind of lost me in that argument.

If the Chinese revalued their currency, wages would go up and cost of imports would also come down dramatically.  They have been stalling it because they have to get high enough in the value chain at an overall economy level (they are not entirely absent from hi tech) so that it doesn't affect their exports.  Still, with a war chest of some $ 800 billion dollars or so plus huge current account surpluses, they can do it and it's only a matter of time that they will.  And when they do, they will be in a position to buy out some of the American companies that would like to see the Chinese revalue.  So in a nutshell, I am saying the Chinese have come a long way from the days of using cheap labour to dump bargain price goods in the international market.  They had to start somewhere because they had to create jobs.  You have to see conditions in Asia - high population and high poverty - to understand that some low paying jobs is a better predicament to have than no jobs at all.  From the 60s or so, the East Asian economies had a clear focus on capturing a good share of exports in labour intensive industries which would create jobs, which is what the people need.  They will aspire for first world standards when income levels also swell to those heights.  What happens with strong ideological convictions in the West is the baby gets thrown out with the bathwater.  So, for example, had Clinton maintained welfare along with de-regulation, workers losing their jobs to globalisation would have had a safety net.  There is too much focus on deficit levels and the existence or absence of a surplus and not on whether the policies in sum create jobs and good quality ones at that.   Europe committed to something even worse vide the Maastricht Treaty and they continue to pay the price for the built in inflexibility of the way the Eurozone and its institutions are set up.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2016 at 13:09
The Democratic Party continues to sweat a bit from this fire Berning just off the premisesLOL
Obama has just said it's time to actually expand Social Security. A pretty big statement since he, like most Democrats, have been open to "reforms" which means higher taxes/benefit cuts/raising the retirement age, which may be better than privatization but not by much... 

Again, this is where Sanders is very important, finally showing the party they don't need to accept these unpopular and difficult changes simply to avoid a worse one. In general I am very glad Sanders has opened people's minds to the fact we do have more choices than bad and less bad. 
I doubt Obama/Dems will do anything more than say these words, but yeah least it shows they are listening. 

This can be easily paid for, by removing the cap on FICA taxes, and adding other untouched income sources, an idea always blasted but Bernie is proving these ideas really are acceptable.




Edited by JJLehto - June 04 2016 at 14:38
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2016 at 15:15
^ the Democratic Party is changing man.. just be patient with it.  It is moving to where you all want to see it go. To the left and the fringes. Just as the GOP has for been doing for years in the opposite direction. To the point where moderates in the GOP are nearly as extinct as those who might be seen as enlightened and compassionate within the GOP ranks. LOL

Hillary can be seen as a place holder for you all. She won't do what you want, but unlike Trump she won't do what you do not like. Big difference

Hillary and her crew are likely the last we'll see of the moderate centrists wing for some time.


Edited by micky - June 04 2016 at 15:16
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2016 at 11:00
If I were a Democrat I would be a little concerned about November. 
Clinton's standing has gone down drastically since the early days when the word "coronation" was being tossed around and her email situation will not go away. In fact, I think her email/private server problem has already hurt her even though the FBI has not yet made a recommendation to the DOJ. 
Sanders (and everyone else) knows that she will easily win the primary and he has stated that he will hang on until the convention simply to carry his message as long as he can. That made sense when he said it but now I'm wondering if he's hanging on to see what the FBI does.
In regard to Sanders, I don't see how he will be able to make good on his campaign promises which include forcing the banking industry and Wall St. to pay for everything.
For the record, I am not a Republican (I've said this before) and I am not voting for Trump.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2016 at 13:53
^
Do not worry about November.
 
1. Clinton is not going to be indicted. That is Sander's pipe dream rather than any possible reality.
 
2. Sanders was right when he said that no one cares about the emails, except for the far-right and far-left. You will also note that the report that said Clinton used a private email server also stated that the previous 5 SOSs had done the exact same thing.  None of them will be indicted either.  No one is putting Colin Powell in jail, and apparently his use of private servers was much more egregious than Clinton's.
 
3. Clinton's poll numbers are going up, which is always what was going to happen once it became clear that she was the nominee, and once people started actually paying attention to what comes out of Trump's mouth.  http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/06/03/1534138/-Clinton-opens-up-double-digit-lead-46-35-over-Trump-nationwide-Reuters-Ipsos-poll  And remember, this is before Sanders drops out of the race. Her numbers will improve again after that, and again after the convention, when most of the Bernie-or-busters wake up and smell the roses.  Or, in the case of Trump, the manure pile.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2016 at 15:18
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

America's true national religion is work, and therefore business.  For another group or religion to want that eradicated is no better than Americans who are anti-Islamist or anti-Semitic.  Culturicide is a bad idea that doesn't work and causes enormous suffering, and that's what the world has to realize. 


America's true national religion is not work but money. and money itself has no value whatever (in contrast to what it stands for)


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2016 at 15:49
My post said I would be worried "if I were A Democrat" which I am not so I am not the least bit worried about November.
I'm glad you're so confident about Clinton's indictment never happening because there are a lot of people who are not so confident. That would be the members of her staff who are also being questioned. Is Clinton confident that they will take the bullet for her? Then there's the young computer guy who actually set up the off site server. He took the fifth when called in for questioning but has now agreed to tell what he knows if granted immunity. The FBI would not have granted immunity if they did not think that what he knew was very important to their investigation. 
Clinton has already broken more than one federal law. Add to this the facts that her attorney had a copy of her server on a storage device in the safe at his office and that Clinton eventually stored the server at a small private company. I don't think her attorney has security clearance to handle government classified documents and I'm positive that the owners of the small company have any security clearance either.
"I did it because others have done it" is about the lamest defense I've heard. 
Your link to Clinton/Trump poll numbers means nothing to me because that has nothing to do with my post.
Don't assume that my concerns about Clinton have anything to do with Trump. 
For the third time in this thread, I am not a Republican and I'm not voting for Trump.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2016 at 16:54
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:


America's true national religion is not work but money. and money itself has no value whatever (in contrast to what it stands for)
Absolute truth 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2016 at 17:09
Originally posted by TeleStrat TeleStrat wrote:

My post said I would be worried "if I were A Democrat" which I am not so I am not the least bit worried about November.
I'm glad you're so confident about Clinton's indictment never happening because there are a lot of people who are not so confident. That would be the members of her staff who are also being questioned. Is Clinton confident that they will take the bullet for her? Then there's the young computer guy who actually set up the off site server. He took the fifth when called in for questioning but has now agreed to tell what he knows if granted immunity. The FBI would not have granted immunity if they did not think that what he knew was very important to their investigation. 
Clinton has already broken more than one federal law. Add to this the facts that her attorney had a copy of her server on a storage device in the safe at his office and that Clinton eventually stored the server at a small private company. I don't think her attorney has security clearance to handle government classified documents and I'm positive that the owners of the small company have any security clearance either.
"I did it because others have done it" is about the lamest defense I've heard. 
Your link to Clinton/Trump poll numbers means nothing to me because that has nothing to do with my post.
Don't assume that my concerns about Clinton have anything to do with Trump. 
For the third time in this thread, I am not a Republican and I'm not voting for Trump.
 
I apologize. I read your post to say you were worried about November.
 
The only thing to worry about is if Trump should win. Then the entire world should be very worried indeed.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2016 at 17:30
^  Understood  Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2016 at 17:31
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

America's true national religion is work, and therefore business.  For another group or religion to want that eradicated is no better than Americans who are anti-Islamist or anti-Semitic.  Culturicide is a bad idea that doesn't work and causes enormous suffering, and that's what the world has to realize. 


America's true national religion is not work but money. and money itself has no value whatever (in contrast to what it stands for)

The problem is that even if you are an atheist you still gotta pray to the money god in order to live.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2016 at 18:30
Yeah the email thing is a total non issue. I get why the right is salivating at the thought, (they are delusional but I get it) but I have noticed many on the left are also hoping for it. A friend of mine still is clinging not just to hope...but to the fact she's gunna be indicted, in his mind. 

It aint happeningLOL It's probably not really an issue, and even if is we all gotta be real, they would never indict her. 

Where I am worried is that as Trump continues to run to the left, (hey he suddenly is pretending to believe the min wage will should go up!) and given his appeal with working class voters and independents, and Clinton's unpopularity pretty much outside the Democratic Party...that does worry me. 
I said before, this election will either have high turnout, or low, if it's the latter I do fear the Democrats will lose. 




Edited by JJLehto - June 06 2016 at 06:23
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2016 at 18:35
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Yeah the email thing is a total non issue. I get why the right is salivating at the thought, (they are delusional but I get it) but I have noticed many on the left are also hoping for it. A friend of mine still is clinging not just to hope...but to the fact she's gunna be indicted, in his mind. 

It aint happeningLOL It's probably not really an issue, and even if is we all gotta be real, they would never indict her.

Even if there is evidence Clinton was in violation of rules/laws/protocols I sincerely doubt it will effect her negatively. Of course, some nobody like Aaron Swartz stealing scientific journals or Edward Snowden blowing whistles will bring down the full force of the law :p
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2016 at 20:24
^ It's not a matter of violating rules. A simple Google search will show that she has already broken two or three federal laws. She has not been charged with anything yet because the investigation is ongoing.
I won't go into the number of classified documents she mishandled, illegally removed and destroyed. She could be charged for any of these but she violated all three.
This is all old news and will be until the FBI concludes it's investigation and makes a recommendation to the DOJ.
If the recommendation is to file charges I'm curious to see how Obama directs the DOJ to proceed.


Edited by TeleStrat - June 05 2016 at 20:33
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