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emigre80 View Drop Down
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Points: 2223 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2016 at 09:36
I do understand what you are saying, and I agree you do not accept Trump. We are disagreeing about how dangerous his presidency would be. Gopnik is arguing that we already accept things that were unthinkable just a year ago, and warns us of the road towards further acceptance of even worse. The  desensitization of an entire population. Hitler did not, after all, start out by gassing Jews. First he banned them from certain professions, public areas, etc. He let each progressive diminishment of liberties stay in place for a while, people got used to it, then he moved on to the next level. 
 
I get your scenario (and think Trump is bad enough, a worse ideologue in four years would be even more frightening), but try this in place: Trump does badly want to be President - his need for approval is terrifying, you can see how he feeds off what his audiences provide. Suppose he does become President, and in modifying his views, loses that adoration?  What would he do to get it back again?  Bomb a few countries, round up some Muslims?  I think it's all too plausible.
 
Trump is "modifying" his views (banning Muslims from the country is now "only a suggestion") because he badly wants to be President (again, we agree there) and needs some support, including financial, from the Republican establishment, who really don't want to be tied to his more extreme views once the election is over.  So now it's "See! He's just being cautious about Muslims!  I can endorse him now!"  Once he's elected and no longer needs the support of Republicans - who will be delighted with him anyway, because the ACA is gone and the Supreme Court is theirs for the taking - he can come back out of the closet and be his natural - i.e. horrific - self once more.
 
Is an ideologue more dangerous than a narcissistic psychopath?  How terrifying that we even have to discuss political possibilities within these parameters.


Edited by emigre80 - May 29 2016 at 09:37
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2016 at 09:53
Originally posted by emigre80 emigre80 wrote:

I do understand what you are saying, and I agree you do not accept Trump. We are disagreeing about how dangerous his presidency would be. Gopnik is arguing that we already accept things that were unthinkable just a year ago, and warns us of the road towards further acceptance of even worse. The  desensitization of an entire population. Hitler did not, after all, start out by gassing Jews. First he banned them from certain professions, public areas, etc. He let each progressive diminishment of liberties stay in place for a while, people got used to it, then he moved on to the next level. 
 
I get your scenario (and think Trump is bad enough, a worse ideologue in four years would be even more frightening), but try this in place: Trump does badly want to be President - his need for approval is terrifying, you can see how he feeds off what his audiences provide. Suppose he does become President, and in modifying his views, loses that adoration?  What would he do to get it back again?  Bomb a few countries, round up some Muslims?  I think it's all too plausible.
 
Trump is "modifying" his views (banning Muslims from the country is now "only a suggestion") because he badly wants to be President (again, we agree there) and needs some support, including financial, from the Republican establishment, who really don't want to be tied to his more extreme views once the election is over.  So now it's "See! He's just being cautious about Muslims!  I can endorse him now!"  Once he's elected and no longer needs the support of Republicans - who will be delighted with him anyway, because the ACA is gone and the Supreme Court is theirs for the taking - he can come back out of the closet and be his natural - i.e. horrific - self once more.
 
Is an ideologue more dangerous than a narcissistic psychopath?  How terrifying that we even have to discuss political possibilities within these parameters.

I entirely agree that that's a bad reason to endorse him.  I think Trump has given enough excellent reasons as to why he would not make a good president.  I just generally advise caution in comparing people to Hitler or Stalin.  They were rather unique specimens in the history of mankind and when the Left starts to compare anybody they fear on the Right to Hitler, the warning cry loses its value.  I will give you an example of this sort of thing.  In the Indian state of Gujarat, after the terrible 2002 riots, the Hindus had decided to vote Modi out of power.  And then the Muslim Mullahs urged all Muslims to line up behind Congress.  This irked them so much that they voted Modi back, and back again.  Until today he's been our Prime Minister for more than 2 years.  I think there are enough excellent arguments against Trump without having to compare him to Hitler.  Yes, it is true that Hitler became THE Hitler over a period of time which is all the more reason we should not compare Trump to Hitler.  For then when the real Hitler v2 arrives, people will ignore the warning signs and vote him to power and then what happens would be anybody's guess.  Trump is actually playing straight out of the Modi playbook though he does, I admit, say things even Modi, an RSS ideologue wouldn't dare say in an election - just pretends to be an outsider when he's been inside the system for so long and is not going to change naught.  And that's the problem; the disillusionment that will then set in will push the electorate further to the brink.  So I do think he's dangerous but for different reasons altogether.  He's making promises he can't keep just because he wants to win an election.  
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2016 at 10:01
You don't need to be Hitler or Stalin to do substantial damage. The US are already enough of a violent country as things are now (and I am not referring only to guns) to need more fuel thrown on to the fire. As Madan pointed out, Trump's followers (as well as those who are embracing far-right movements all over Europe) are much more of a cause for worry than the man himself.
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Points: 2223 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2016 at 10:01
actually, I also avoid using Hitler analogies and oppose them for the same reason you do. I think in this case the possibility exists.  I would really, really like to be wrong.  Adam Gopnik is extraordinarily level-headed, so if he is talking about it then it frightens me even more.
 
 
well, we can try calling him the American Modi, although I am not sure how many people will get that.
 
I get the impression you believe that Trump is just ordinary appalling. I think he's appalling to the nth degree, with sprinkles on and a cherry on top.  I also get the impression that you do not live in America, which means you may either have more perspective on the issue or may just have some very large oceans between him and you, which would make me slightly more sanguine, I admit.


Edited by emigre80 - May 29 2016 at 10:04
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2016 at 10:05
^^  Besides, your President wants to do business with Modi so that might turn out to be an endorsement, uh oh! LOL  Things are all kinds of messed up in politics now.
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2016 at 10:08
Originally posted by emigre80 emigre80 wrote:

I think he's appalling to the nth degree, with sprinkles on and a cherry on top.  I also get the impression that you do not live in America, which means you may either have more perspective on the issue or may just have some very large oceans between him and you, which would make me slightly more sanguine, I admit.

Yes, I do live way outside America but no, I do find him all kinds of appalling.  As I said, he has said things I haven't heard in election campaigns run by barely literate politicians in India.   All the same, I am still not convinced he's Hitler.  He could be some new kind of horrible, but I still tend to think that will happen more through him f***ing up.  Hitler was brilliant.  Cruel but brilliant.  I can't imagine Trump being brilliant in any way or at anything.  Ok, he does say, "You're fired" brilliantly, I give that.
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Points: 13101 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2016 at 10:19
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

^^  Besides, your President wants to do business with Modi so that might turn out to be an endorsement, uh oh! LOL  Things are all kinds of messed up in politics now.

I guess that would be referred to as Modi's Operandi.

Sorry, too much coffee this morning.
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2016 at 10:19
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

^^  Besides, your President wants to do business with Modi so that might turn out to be an endorsement, uh oh! LOL  Things are all kinds of messed up in politics now.

I guess that would be referred to as Modi's Operandi.

Sorry, too much coffee this morning.

Not at all, that's brilliant! LOL
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Points: 2223 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2016 at 10:26
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by emigre80 emigre80 wrote:

I think he's appalling to the nth degree, with sprinkles on and a cherry on top.  I also get the impression that you do not live in America, which means you may either have more perspective on the issue or may just have some very large oceans between him and you, which would make me slightly more sanguine, I admit.

Yes, I do live way outside America but no, I do find him all kinds of appalling.  As I said, he has said things I haven't heard in election campaigns run by barely literate politicians in India.   All the same, I am still not convinced he's Hitler.  He could be some new kind of horrible, but I still tend to think that will happen more through him f***ing up.  Hitler was brilliant.  Cruel but brilliant.  I can't imagine Trump being brilliant in any way or at anything.  Ok, he does say, "You're fired" brilliantly, I give that.
 
Yeah, I see what you mean. I fervently hope and believe that Clinton will win the election, so we never have to find out just what brand of appalling Trump really is. I would certainly be happy for this entire discussion to remain academic.
 
If not, I am moving to your neck of the woods, wherever that is.
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Points: 2223 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2016 at 10:27
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

^^  Besides, your President wants to do business with Modi so that might turn out to be an endorsement, uh oh! LOL  Things are all kinds of messed up in politics now.

I guess that would be referred to as Modi's Operandi.

Sorry, too much coffee this morning.

Not at all, that's brilliant! LOL
 
it was really good.
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Points: 65760 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2016 at 10:28
I personally do not think Trump is as scary as all that. He will have to stay moderate to try and gain appeal outside his demographic if he wants to beat Hilldawg, and I really don't think he personally has any real idea what to do with the presidency if he gets it. I feel like he would be mostly like a third term of W. His supporters are nasty and he is promoting hate crimes and the organizing of hate groups, but that is a problem that is separate from presidency/politics. Giving someone like that a platform and then being surprised when it emboldens followers, but also being against those who organize and speak out against him in the form of protests is essentially tacit support for the spreading of said hate. That kind of politics can't be changed by ticking off a name with a D next to it.
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Points: 2223 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2016 at 10:30
Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

I personally do not think Trump is as scary as all that. He will have to stay moderate to try and gain appeal outside his demographic if he wants to beat Hilldawg, and I really don't think he personally has any real idea what to do with the presidency if he gets it. I feel like he would be mostly like a third term of W. His supporters are nasty and he is promoting hate crimes and the organizing of hate groups, but that is a problem that is separate from presidency/politics. Giving someone like that a platform and then being surprised when it emboldens followers, but also being against those who organize and speak out against him in the form of protests is essentially tacit support for the spreading of said hate. That kind of politics can't be changed by ticking off a name with a D next to it.
 
I agree. First we have to beat Trump and then we have to find a solution to the problems that created a Trump candidacy.  The second is not possible without the first, so I am focusing on that for now.
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Points: 13101 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2016 at 11:55
This crap just keeps getting worse and worse. Have you heard about the Trump University case, the one in which plaintiffs accuse the "university" (and I use the term with derision) of swindling them out of thousands of dollars? The judge in the case, Gonzalo Curiel, just happens to be a natural born American of Mexican ancestry. Trump, in a speech in front of his usual hostile hoard of race-baiters, made the implication that the judge should recuse himself from the case because he is a "hater" and then mentions he is a "Mexican".

From The Atlantic, full article found here... http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/05/trump-judge-gonzalo-curiel/484790/?utm_source=yahoo&yptr=yahoo

“We’re in front of a very hostile judge,” Mr. Trump said. “The judge was appointed by Barack Obama, federal judge. Frankly, he should recuse himself because he’s given us ruling after ruling after ruling, negative, negative, negative.”

Mr. Trump also told the audience, which had previously chanted the Republican standard-bearer’s signature “build that wall” mantra in reference to Mr. Trump’s proposed wall along the Mexican border, that Judge Curiel is “Mexican.”

“What happens is the judge, who happens to be, we believe, Mexican, which is great. I think that’s fine,” Mr. Trump said.

Judge Curiel was born in Indiana.


What the f*ck? Why does it matter if a judge's parents or great-grandparents came from Mexico? Would you make the same comment about a judge of Jewish or African origin and get away with it? Would you even mention the judge's family origin if he was Italian, Irish or Polish? If it is "great" and "fine", then why mention it at all? Are people just too stupid to understand the rhetoric Trump is spewing? Or, if it is as I fear, they are accepting of this rhetoric because it falls in line with the racist attitudes they've held for years and finally are allowed to express, along with a candidate who freely expresses it for them?

We don't need this sort of thing coming from a presidential candidate. Not in America.
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Points: 2223 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2016 at 13:17
^ I'm waiting to see the reports of how many death threats the "Mexican" judge and his family get. And Trump will, with wide-eyed innocence, say "I said Mexican judges were fine!"
 
Not even dog-whistling.  Shouting fire in a crowded theatre is more like it.
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2016 at 14:53
Yeah, people (even extreme haters) are kinda falling for his cult of personality... I have no doubt Trump is in total control of everything he's doing. I think that's pretty evident. 
Cruz is, in my book, the one who's completely unhinged. 

Again, I think they ALL are terrible, Trump, Cruz, Kasich, Rubio, Jeb, Scott Walker, Paul Ryan....Chris Christie may be the sanest, safest option and in a way he's like Trump that I have no idea what he really stands for/would do in power since he's 1: had to be moderate as governor of liberal NJ and 2: he's gotten little done due to state gridlockLOL  The few things he HAS tried is bullying teachers, denying promised pensions getting paid out, makes anti public pro private school comments...so I have little faith in him. His trying to stop gay marriage also angered me. So yeah, I'm not too into saying which is worse per se, they all would be bad, just I can't help but feel everyone is kind of buying this Trump line where he's the next Hitler, he's truly the worst there is and etc etc   I just am trying to be fair, I really don't think a Trump presidency would be any worse than any other Repub, which is of course...very badLOL 



Edited by JJLehto - May 29 2016 at 15:04
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Points: 8642 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2016 at 15:03
^ While the NeverTrump "stalwarts" falling in line with hairpiece is of course a terrible and hypocritical thing, it is generally only due to political tribalism rather than any special love for the candidate.
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2016 at 19:27
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

This crap just keeps getting worse and worse. Have you heard about the Trump University case, the one in which plaintiffs accuse the "university" (and I use the term with derision) of swindling them out of thousands of dollars? The judge in the case, Gonzalo Curiel, just happens to be a natural born American of Mexican ancestry. Trump, in a speech in front of his usual hostile hoard of race-baiters, made the implication that the judge should recuse himself from the case because he is a "hater" and then mentions he is a "Mexican".

From The Atlantic, full article found here... http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/05/trump-judge-gonzalo-curiel/484790/?utm_source=yahoo&yptr=yahoo

“We’re in front of a very hostile judge,” Mr. Trump said. “The judge was appointed by Barack Obama, federal judge. Frankly, he should recuse himself because he’s given us ruling after ruling after ruling, negative, negative, negative.”

Mr. Trump also told the audience, which had previously chanted the Republican standard-bearer’s signature “build that wall” mantra in reference to Mr. Trump’s proposed wall along the Mexican border, that Judge Curiel is “Mexican.”

“What happens is the judge, who happens to be, we believe, Mexican, which is great. I think that’s fine,” Mr. Trump said.

Judge Curiel was born in Indiana.


What the f*ck? Why does it matter if a judge's parents or great-grandparents came from Mexico? Would you make the same comment about a judge of Jewish or African origin and get away with it? Would you even mention the judge's family origin if he was Italian, Irish or Polish? If it is "great" and "fine", then why mention it at all? Are people just too stupid to understand the rhetoric Trump is spewing? Or, if it is as I fear, they are accepting of this rhetoric because it falls in line with the racist attitudes they've held for years and finally are allowed to express, along with a candidate who freely expresses it for them?

We don't need this sort of thing coming from a presidential candidate. Not in America.

Why doesn't somebody go and smash this vid on Drumpf's face? I thought it was brilliant, as it usually is coming from Jon Oliver?




Edited by rogerthat - May 29 2016 at 19:41
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Points: 209 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2016 at 20:11
But both sides of the political spectrum like to talk about the race of whoever their talking about. EVERYONE in America does. It's nothing new.
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Points: 2223 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 30 2016 at 10:50
Originally posted by garfunkel garfunkel wrote:

But both sides of the political spectrum like to talk about the race of whoever their talking about. EVERYONE in America does. It's nothing new.
"Mexican" is not a race, it's a nationality.
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Points: 65760 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 30 2016 at 13:42
The libertarian party has desecrated the memory of Voltairine de Cleyre
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