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Epignosis 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32553
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 Posted: April 01 2010 at 19:29 |
 The Doctor wrote:
Really? Do tell. Hmmm...you have no problems with menage a trois?  |
*looking for a sighing emoticon*
I am in favor of the expansion of localized health care system. It isn't what's on the liberal agenda, but it is not something conservatives have proposed. Still, it is "liberal" idealistically. I do not think the federal government should have much to do with health care at all.
In other words: If local governments can do the job (or barring that, state governments) why should the federal government get involved? It makes no sense to have such an expensive and crippling overhaul on a national level, especially when certain liberal states could have paved the way and shown that such a model for health care could work. Instead, we're left to wonder, having to look to foreign governments for data, which of course we know is useless due to a variety of other variables.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32553
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Posted: April 01 2010 at 19:30 |
Easy Money wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
Howdy Rob, are you a Libertarian? Can you explain how some of this Libertarian thing is supposed to work and I will direct some questions your way. |
 I'm actually drinking.  As far as labels go, I believe I am a strong conservative with some libertarian leanings (and one liberal one, I guess).I think it's fair to say that any system can be exploited by those who wish to do so. Has history seen one that was incorruptible? I don't think it has. Arguing about the sewer system is arguing about local government, which I generally see little problem with in terms of the big picture (notice how on page on of this thread I said I think local government could provide certain health care services at taxpayer expense).Federal government has no place in any of this in my opinion.However, private corporations provide electricity, which, without them, government-run facilities could not function. So I think that's interesting at least. |
Actually I don't have any real set in stone ideas. In the past couple elections I've voted for candidates in these parties:
Libertarian
Green
Democrat
Republican
I can argue almost any political position you can come up with, my parents were right wing political activists, so I was raised on this stuff. |
No real set in stone ideas?
That's a shame.
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10680
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Posted: April 01 2010 at 19:33 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Step 1) There's a desire and need for a sewage system.Step 2) Wise souls raise money and build the infrastructure necessary. Step 3) They charge for their service. Step 4) Investors make a profit Step 5) Peoples needs for sewage displacement are met. |
I think it is all idealism that has never worked in the real world and never will.
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10680
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Posted: April 01 2010 at 19:35 |
Epignosis wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
Howdy Rob, are you a Libertarian? Can you explain how some of this Libertarian thing is supposed to work and I will direct some questions your way. |
I'm actually drinking. As far as labels go, I believe I am a strong conservative with some libertarian leanings (and one liberal one, I guess).I think it's fair to say that any system can be exploited by those who wish to do so. Has history seen one that was incorruptible? I don't think it has. Arguing about the sewer system is arguing about local government, which I generally see little problem with in terms of the big picture (notice how on page on of this thread I said I think local government could provide certain health care services at taxpayer expense).Federal government has no place in any of this in my opinion.However, private corporations provide electricity, which, without them, government-run facilities could not function. So I think that's interesting at least. |
Actually I don't have any real set in stone ideas. In the past couple elections I've voted for candidates in these parties:
Libertarian
Green
Democrat
Republican
I can argue almost any political position you can come up with, my parents were right wing political activists, so I was raised on this stuff. |
No real set in stone ideas?That's a shame. |
Not politically, I mean I do believe in right and wrong if that's what you're getting at ... um ... how much are you drinking, ha ha ... this is getting kind of creepy and off subject . 
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Status: Offline
Points: 8543
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Posted: April 01 2010 at 19:37 |
Easy Money wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Step 1) There's a desire and need for a sewage system.
Step 2) Wise souls raise money and build the infrastructure necessary.
Step 3) They charge for their service.
Step 4) Investors make a profit
Step 5) Peoples needs for sewage displacement are met. |
I think it is all idealism that has never worked in the real world and never will. |
Step 1) There's a need for a sewage system
Step 2) Rich people underpay the poor to build the sewage system
Step 3) Rich people overcharge the poor to use the sewage system
Step 4) Rich people get even richer
Step 5) Poor people get even poorer
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11420
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Posted: April 01 2010 at 19:37 |
Atavachron wrote:
this is getting a bit 'chicken and egg' .. private enterprise, government, and back again--
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Extract from Septic Tanks R'Us PLC Board Meeting 1/4/2010 CEO: Ok everyone, what are we going to call the new sewage system designed for those below a certain income threshold ? Lackey 1: Mmm.. how about a Maternity Hospital ?
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32553
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Posted: April 01 2010 at 19:41 |
Easy Money wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
Howdy Rob, are you a Libertarian? Can you explain how some of this Libertarian thing is supposed to work and I will direct some questions your way. |
I'm actually drinking. As far as labels go, I believe I am a strong conservative with some libertarian leanings (and one liberal one, I guess).I think it's fair to say that any system can be exploited by those who wish to do so. Has history seen one that was incorruptible? I don't think it has. Arguing about the sewer system is arguing about local government, which I generally see little problem with in terms of the big picture (notice how on page on of this thread I said I think local government could provide certain health care services at taxpayer expense).Federal government has no place in any of this in my opinion.However, private corporations provide electricity, which, without them, government-run facilities could not function. So I think that's interesting at least. |
Actually I don't have any real set in stone ideas. In the past couple elections I've voted for candidates in these parties:
Libertarian
Green
Democrat
Republican
I can argue almost any political position you can come up with, my parents were right wing political activists, so I was raised on this stuff. |
No real set in stone ideas?That's a shame. |
Not politically, I mean I do believe in right and wrong if that's what you're getting at ... um ... how much are you drinking, ha ha ... this is getting kind of creepy and off subject . |
No worries John. I'm just killing time while I finish something up. It interests me to see where people stand on issues, that's all. It's all right to not be a political stalwart.
A changed mind about a matter can show intelligent compromise, while a changed mind on a conviction can show moral weakness. 
I should be a philosophy professor or something. 
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32553
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Posted: April 01 2010 at 19:43 |
The Doctor wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Step 1) There's a desire and need for a sewage system.
Step 2) Wise souls raise money and build the infrastructure necessary.
Step 3) They charge for their service.
Step 4) Investors make a profit
Step 5) Peoples needs for sewage displacement are met. |
I think it is all idealism that has never worked in the real world and never will. |
Step 1) There's a need for a sewage system
Step 2) Rich people underpay the poor to build the sewage system
Step 3) Rich people overcharge the poor to use the sewage system
Step 4) Rich people get even richer
Step 5) Poor people get even poorer |
You missed a step:
The poor say "f**k you. We're going to build our own sewage system."
Then you missed the other step where the poor start screwing each other out of money. See, greed isn't limited to the rich.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: April 01 2010 at 19:46 |
Epignosis wrote:
You missed a step:
The poor say "f**k you. We're going to build our own sewage system."
Then you missed the other step where the poor start screwing each other out of money. See, greed isn't limited to the rich.
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You shouldn't have said that. The poor are so much going to come over your place to use the facilities and if you don't let them. Look out. 
Edited by Slartibartfast - April 01 2010 at 19:46
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: April 01 2010 at 19:49 |
Easy Money wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Step 1) There's a desire and need for a sewage system.Step 2) Wise souls raise money and build the infrastructure necessary. Step 3) They charge for their service. Step 4) Investors make a profit Step 5) Peoples needs for sewage displacement are met. |
I think it is all idealism that has never worked in the real world and never will. |
I think it has and could, but I could care less what your opinion on it is.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: April 01 2010 at 19:50 |
The Doctor wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Step 1) There's a desire and need for a sewage system.
Step 2) Wise souls raise money and build the infrastructure necessary.
Step 3) They charge for their service.
Step 4) Investors make a profit
Step 5) Peoples needs for sewage displacement are met. |
I think it is all idealism that has never worked in the real world and never will. |
Step 1) There's a need for a sewage system
Step 2) Rich people underpay the poor to build the sewage system
Step 3) Rich people overcharge the poor to use the sewage system
Step 4) Rich people get even richer
Step 5) Poor people get even poorer |
Strange that doesn't happen with every industry then isn't it?
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32553
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Posted: April 01 2010 at 19:50 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
You missed a step:
The poor say "f**k you. We're going to build our own sewage system."
Then you missed the other step where the poor start screwing each other out of money. See, greed isn't limited to the rich.
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You shouldn't have said that. The poor are so much going to come over your place to use the facilities and if you don't let them. Look out.
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You mean this as a joke, but it actually serves to prove a point. There is no "rich" or "poor." That sh*t's all relative. If you look at our bank account, we a dirt poor, but we manage to pay what bills we have and eat decently. For that, I consider us "well-off" and more importantly, "grateful."
And since we're dealing with the subject, how about this- a sewage system is a LUXURY. You do not need it to survive. People have lived without those for centuries. Libertarians don't need to come up with a solution regarding it.
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10680
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Posted: April 01 2010 at 19:51 |
Epignosis wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
Howdy Rob, are you a Libertarian? Can you explain how some of this Libertarian thing is supposed to work and I will direct some questions your way. |
I'm actually drinking. As far as labels go, I believe I am a strong conservative with some libertarian leanings (and one liberal one, I guess).I think it's fair to say that any system can be exploited by those who wish to do so. Has history seen one that was incorruptible? I don't think it has. Arguing about the sewer system is arguing about local government, which I generally see little problem with in terms of the big picture (notice how on page on of this thread I said I think local government could provide certain health care services at taxpayer expense).Federal government has no place in any of this in my opinion.However, private corporations provide electricity, which, without them, government-run facilities could not function. So I think that's interesting at least. |
Actually I don't have any real set in stone ideas. In the past couple elections I've voted for candidates in these parties:
Libertarian
Green
Democrat
Republican
I can argue almost any political position you can come up with, my parents were right wing political activists, so I was raised on this stuff. |
No real set in stone ideas?That's a shame. |
Not politically, I mean I do believe in right and wrong if that's what you're getting at ... um ... how much are you drinking, ha ha ... this is getting kind of creepy and off subject . |
No worries John. I'm just killing time while I finish something up. It interests me to see where people stand on issues, that's all. It's all right to not be a political stalwart. A changed mind about a matter can show intelligent compromise, while a changed mind on a conviction can show moral weakness. I should be a philosophy professor or something. |
...mmmmmmmmm moral weakness, I have feet that are quick to running to mischief as well
anyway, in the future don't forget easy money isn't afraid to get into the sewer.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: April 01 2010 at 19:54 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Step 1) There's a desire and need for a sewage system.
Step 2) Wise souls raise money and build the infrastructure necessary.
Step 3) They charge for their service.
Step 4) Investors make a profit
Step 5) Peoples needs for sewage displacement are met. |
I think it is all idealism that has never worked in the real world and never will. |
Step 1) There's a need for a sewage system
Step 2) Rich people underpay the poor to build the sewage system
Step 3) Rich people overcharge the poor to use the sewage system
Step 4) Rich people get even richer
Step 5) Poor people get even poorer |
Strange that doesn't happen with every industry then isn't it? |
Oh good Shields.. for all your knowledge about numbers and economic figures, you certainly know jacksh*t about the human being and his insatiable greed....
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Status: Offline
Points: 8543
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Posted: April 01 2010 at 20:03 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Step 1) There's a desire and need for a sewage system.
Step 2) Wise souls raise money and build the infrastructure necessary.
Step 3) They charge for their service.
Step 4) Investors make a profit
Step 5) Peoples needs for sewage displacement are met. |
I think it is all idealism that has never worked in the real world and never will. |
Step 1) There's a need for a sewage system
Step 2) Rich people underpay the poor to build the sewage system
Step 3) Rich people overcharge the poor to use the sewage system
Step 4) Rich people get even richer
Step 5) Poor people get even poorer |
Strange that doesn't happen with every industry then isn't it? |
It doesn't? Perhaps that's because of the government intervention that keeps the rich from screwing the poor too badly. 
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32553
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Posted: April 01 2010 at 20:09 |
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Why is it in these discussions it's always
rich = evil
vs
poor = good?
In my experience, it's usually that the rich earn what they have through hard work, and the poor stay poor because they prefer booze and Jerry Springer. I've seen plenty of the former become the latter very quickly.
Sorry folks. Until you prove to me that most of the poor are completely unfortunate being poor, and that rich people are evil (despite hiring willing people who, to be redundant, would be worse off if they didn't work), this whole discussion is skewed in a silly way.
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10680
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Posted: April 01 2010 at 20:20 |
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show me one quote where I've said anything even similar to that.
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Status: Offline
Points: 8543
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Posted: April 01 2010 at 20:20 |
Epignosis wrote:
Why is it in these discussions it's always
rich = evil
vs
poor = good?
In my experience, it's usually that the rich earn what they have through hard work, and the poor stay poor because they prefer booze and Jerry Springer. I've seen plenty of the former become the latter very quickly.
Sorry folks. Until you prove to me that most of the poor are completely unfortunate being poor, and that rich people are evil (despite hiring willing people who, to be redundant, would be worse off if they didn't work), this whole discussion is skewed in a silly way.
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It's not that Rob. For me human = evil if they have the means and power to show their evil nature. The rich simply have that power. As for your post before last, I agree, if a poor person becomes rich, generally he will exploit those who did not have such good luck to become rich. Government simply provides a means to, at least to some degree, hold the evil side of human nature in check.
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: April 01 2010 at 20:23 |
Epignosis wrote:
Why is it in these discussions it's always
rich = evil
No Robert. It's not that simple. But:
rich=more power=more liberty to let human nature darkest impulses reign supreme=evil
vs
poor = good?
Not at all. Just less powerful. Therefore in the losing side.
In my experience, it's usually that the rich earn what they have through hard work, and the poor stay poor because they prefer booze and Jerry Springer. I've seen plenty of the former become the latter very quickly. Maybe only in America man. Try checking the rest of the world. Not everybody can get rich just by hard work. And even here: what about mental illness? What about the glass ceiling that stops people from getting rich? What about the poor having to get survival wages so they can't do anything else in order to get rich?
Sorry folks. Until you prove to me that most of the poor are completely unfortunate being poor have you ever been poor? We can't generalize , and that rich people are evil same here. But with money comes power. With power comes more possibilities of becoming greedy, and yes, in a way, evil (despite hiring willing people who, to be redundant, would be worse off if they didn't work paying them ridiculously low wages , this whole discussion is skewed in a silly way. No... I see two sides and not one is really being favored here...
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Edited by The T - April 01 2010 at 20:24
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32553
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Posted: April 01 2010 at 20:33 |
The Doctor wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Why is it in these discussions it's always
rich = evil
vs
poor = good?
In my experience, it's usually that the rich earn what they have through hard work, and the poor stay poor because they prefer booze and Jerry Springer. I've seen plenty of the former become the latter very quickly.
Sorry folks. Until you prove to me that most of the poor are completely unfortunate being poor, and that rich people are evil (despite hiring willing people who, to be redundant, would be worse off if they didn't work), this whole discussion is skewed in a silly way.
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It's not that Rob. For me human = evil if they have the means and power to show their evil nature. The rich simply have that power. As for your post before last, I agree, if a poor person becomes rich, generally he will exploit those who did not have such good luck to become rich. |
I'd say humans are evil regardless of money- it's just that money gives us more of a means to express that evil on a grander scale.
Some poor people steal from stores, after all, which is cheating the "rich," yes?
As for the following gem, I'll let you rebut yourself:
The Doctor wrote:
Government simply provides a means to, at least to some degree,
hold the evil side of human nature in check. |
The Doctor wrote:
After all, government is made up of
individuals |
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A health care question...
