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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 13 2014 at 06:50 |
Atavachron wrote:
lazland wrote:
I am of the opinion that it is easier to say, Rabin is an Art Rock artist that Rabin might be a Crossover artist. In the latter, 99% of people here would not have a clue what that was defined as anyway. I know I would struggle, and that is the problem with all fabricated things. |
But in our time, especially for people under 30 or so, 'Art Rock' is not necessarily any more clear than 'Crossover Prog', and though the term Art-Rock has been around a long time and was not our invention, it is a novel term to very many younger people. Besides, isn't all prog "Artrock" ? And then there's that annoying difference between the European definition of Artrock and the American one.
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True, but as we were fond of saying back in the day: not all Art Rock is prog,
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What?
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65268
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Posted: March 13 2014 at 06:52 |
Exactly, and therein lay the problem.
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13635
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Posted: March 13 2014 at 06:56 |
Atavachron wrote:
lazland wrote:
I am of the opinion that it is easier to say, Rabin is an Art Rock artist that Rabin might be a Crossover artist. In the latter, 99% of people here would not have a clue what that was defined as anyway. I know I would struggle, and that is the problem with all fabricated things. |
But in our time, especially for people under 30 or so, 'Art Rock' is not necessarily any more clear than 'Crossover Prog', and though the term Art-Rock has been around a long time and was not our invention, it is a novel term to very many younger people. Besides, isn't all prog "Artrock" ? And then there's that annoying difference between the European definition of Artrock and the American one.
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Not unfair points, David.
For people under 30, I would tend to agree with you, although whether "Crossover" is any clearer is something I would take issue with.
Yes, all prog rock could fall under the banner of "art rock". Back in the seventies, people referred to the artists we have here under a multitude of sub genres as either progressive rock or art rock. That was it. It is us, and by that I mean prog rock fans rather than PA exclusively, who have sought to categorise further.
It would actually be nice to have a pleasant debate about all of this without it generating into the usual ding dong. For example, I am interested in what the difference between the American and European definition of art rock is. I was not aware that there was a huge difference, although I am extremely happy to be corrected in this regard.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13635
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Posted: March 13 2014 at 06:57 |
Dean wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
lazland wrote:
I am of the opinion that it is easier to say, Rabin is an Art Rock artist that Rabin might be a Crossover artist. In the latter, 99% of people here would not have a clue what that was defined as anyway. I know I would struggle, and that is the problem with all fabricated things. |
But in our time, especially for people under 30 or so, 'Art Rock' is not necessarily any more clear than 'Crossover Prog', and though the term Art-Rock has been around a long time and was not our invention, it is a novel term to very many younger people. Besides, isn't all prog "Artrock" ? And then there's that annoying difference between the European definition of Artrock and the American one.
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True, but as we were fond of saying back in the day: not all Art Rock is prog, |
As with David, I absolutely agree with this. I have never suggested that all art rock is prog. All prog, though, could be classified as art rock. The trick is, as ever, to identify what is prog, and what is not. Simples, eh?
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65268
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Posted: March 13 2014 at 07:10 |
lazland wrote:
It would actually be nice to have a pleasant debate about all of this without it generating into the usual ding dong. For example, I am interested in what the difference between the American and European definition of art rock is. I was not aware that there was a huge difference, although I am extremely happy to be corrected in this regard. |
Dean will answer this in finer detail I imagine, but generally in Europe and Britain Artrock refered somewhat specifically to those who included the Bowie-Eno-RM set, whereas in the US it was a much wider phrase that included pretty much any "arty" rock artist from Floyd to Kansas to Genesis to John Lennon.
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13635
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Posted: March 13 2014 at 07:20 |
Atavachron wrote:
lazland wrote:
It would actually be nice to have a pleasant debate about all of this without it generating into the usual ding dong. For example, I am interested in what the difference between the American and European definition of art rock is. I was not aware that there was a huge difference, although I am extremely happy to be corrected in this regard. |
Dean will answer this in finer detail I imagine, but generally in Europe and Britain Artrock refered somewhat specifically to those who included the Bowie-Eno-RM set, whereas in the US it was a much wider phrase that included pretty much any "arty" rock artist from Floyd to Kansas to Genesis to John Lennon.
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Mmmmm. In Britain, Genesis, Floyd, and solo Lennon would certainly have come under the art rock banner, and, indeed, did. The Bowie, Eno, RM set you refer to would have been classified as either or both of glam rock or art rock. In other words, glam, like prog, was part of an art rock set clearly identifiable as such in this country.
Therefore, to clarify earlier posts made, I would never classify Bowie or Roxy Music as progressive rock bands. Ditto Lennon. I would, though, class all as art rock. And, btw, that does not make them prog related, either.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65268
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Posted: March 13 2014 at 07:27 |
But then wouldn't that make our use of 'Artrock' for a category that does not include Genesis, Floyd, Lennon (nor Bowie or Eno) be misleading and/or historically incorrect?
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13635
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Posted: March 13 2014 at 07:34 |
Atavachron wrote:
But then wouldn't that make our use of 'Artrock' for a category that does not include Genesis, Floyd, Lennon (nor Bowie or Eno) be misleading and/or historically incorrect?
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Without wishing to be overly pedantic, and in keeping with the spirit of this discussion, you could classify Genesis, Floyd, Yes, Le Orme, Tull, Uncle Tom Cobbly et al as Progressive Art Rock, to distinguish it from General Art rock, and, given that this is a Progressive Rock site, I would assume people would not be too misled when they discovered that Lennon was not included here as Art Rock artist. They would, I am sure, be able to appreciate that Lennon was many things, but prog he most certainly was not.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65268
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Posted: March 13 2014 at 07:44 |
I think people would understand (I've never been for underestimating people), but if we're gonna make Yes and Tull 'Progressive Artrock' then all bets are off, seems to me. I mean the philosophic logistics boggle the mind. But it is an interesting look at history.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 13 2014 at 07:52 |
This is a good reason for quietly sweeping the term Art Rock under Greg Lakes very expensive Persian rug
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What?
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65268
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Posted: March 13 2014 at 08:03 |
Lake wears a piece? That explains a lot.
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ghost_of_morphy
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2755
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Posted: March 13 2014 at 16:16 |
lucas wrote:
raeloneq wrote:
Hello,
Just wondering if the site can add Trevor Rabin as an artist to the site. I know his early stuff is really pop, but his last album is a must for prog fans and deserves at least to be recognized.
Thanks |
Asia is here, but they play AOR, just like Trevor Rabin. |
It really isn't about what is prog or what is related to prog or what influenced prog. Groups that have the most tenuous links to prog (Jefferson Airplane, Black Sabbath, Miles Davis, etc. etc.) are proudly listed here, while acts whose links to prog are multitudinous and well documented.are routinely rejected. Boston is a good example here.
And it's always the same stupid excuse. They play AOR.
As if AOR didn't partially evolve out of the prog scene.
You will notice that the same people never say "They play metal" or "They play jazz" or anything else. It is pure snobbishness trying to pass itself off as sophistication. Once you realize this, you realize that PA should not be used to define what is or what not is progresive rock. At it's best. PA lists music that might appeal to some people who like some progressive rock and has definite biases for and against music that are not very logical.
Of course Trevor Rabin should be included as a prog related act.
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ole-the-first
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 03 2012
Location: Russia
Status: Offline
Points: 1534
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Posted: March 13 2014 at 17:09 |
ghost_of_morphy wrote:
Groups that have the most tenuous links to prog (Jefferson Airplane, Black Sabbath, Miles Davis, etc. etc.) are proudly listed here |
'Sabatage' for me has always been a prog album, and there is a bunch of prog songs on their other LPs. So I wouldn't say that Black Sabbath are 'tenuously' related to prog.
Edited by ole-the-first - March 13 2014 at 17:09
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This night wounds time.
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: March 13 2014 at 18:18 |
lazland wrote:
yam yam wrote:
And so it is Steve. Thomas has now voted 'yes' too (I forgot to mention that he, as well as Diego, still had to cast their first votes when I bumped this thread yesterday). Trevor Rabin is now therefore cleared for inclusion in Crossover. |
Good
Time now, then, to revisit Phil Collins on the basis of Face Value
(Please, do not take it seriously, really, what a joke). |
Fixed for great prog justice
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Chris S
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
Status: Offline
Points: 7028
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Posted: March 13 2014 at 19:18 |
^ I stand by what I said 10 years ago, Phil Collin's omission from PA is the single most self damning act that PA inflicts upon itself in terms of lack of credibility as a prog site.
Face Value, Brand X, Genesis....and yet some unfathomable perception by a few that this place will be worse off if he was included smacks of snobbishness or narrow mindedness.
Christ I even have emails from M@X the site owner saying he should be included and he would be up on PA in 2010/11....go figure
Fantastic news that Trevor Rabin has finally made it on here.
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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Chris S
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
Status: Offline
Points: 7028
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Posted: March 13 2014 at 19:22 |
ghost_of_morphy wrote:
lucas wrote:
raeloneq wrote:
Hello,
Just wondering if the site can add Trevor Rabin as an artist to the site. I know his early stuff is really pop, but his last album is a must for prog fans and deserves at least to be recognized.
Thanks |
Asia is here, but they play AOR, just like Trevor Rabin. |
It really isn't about what is prog or what is related to prog or what influenced prog. Groups that have the most tenuous links to prog (Jefferson Airplane, Black Sabbath, Miles Davis, etc. etc.) are proudly listed here, while acts whose links to prog are multitudinous and well documented.are routinely rejected. Boston is a good example here.
And it's always the same stupid excuse. They play AOR.
As if AOR didn't partially evolve out of the prog scene.
You will notice that the same people never say "They play metal" or "They play jazz" or anything else. It is pure snobbishness trying to pass itself off as sophistication. Once you realize this, you realize that PA should not be used to define what is or what not is progresive rock. At it's best. PA lists music that might appeal to some people who like some progressive rock and has definite biases for and against music that are not very logical.
Of course Trevor Rabin should be included as a prog related act. |
Great to see such a well put argument regarding AOR and even how AOR morphed from prog leanings. Asia a classic case and I for one stand corrected regarding Boston. I argued against their inclusion in the past and actually in retrospect see that was wrong now.
Maybe they will be revisited at some point.
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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Evolver
Special Collaborator
Crossover & JR/F/Canterbury Teams
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: The Idiocracy
Status: Offline
Points: 5482
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Posted: March 13 2014 at 19:25 |
I wouldn't have voted Rabin in based on most of what I had heard from him, up until the point last year when he was submitted. Under the site guidelines, if an artist has one album that is fully prog, then they belong here. The 2012 album "Jacaranda", submitted for the original vote, in my opinion, meets that criteria. Boston, on the other hand, had one song I would call prog, and only vague hints of progressive rock elsewhere. Phil Collins even less. I would bet that every member on this site could find a few entries on this site that would make them say "They don't belong here". I could name quite a few that I feel that way about. And on the other side, there are artists that I think should be listed that have been rejected. My advice? Get over it.
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Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
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Evolver
Special Collaborator
Crossover & JR/F/Canterbury Teams
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: The Idiocracy
Status: Offline
Points: 5482
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Posted: March 13 2014 at 19:31 |
Chris S wrote:
^ I stand by what I said 10 years ago, Phil Collin's omission from PA is the single most self damning act that PA inflicts upon itself in terms of lack of credibility as a prog site.
Face Value, Brand X, Genesis....and yet some unfathomable perception by a few that this place will be worse off if he was included smacks of snobbishness or narrow mindedness.
Christ I even have emails from M@X the site owner saying he should be included and he would be up on PA in 2010/11....go figure
Fantastic news that Trevor Rabin has finally made it on here. |
I agree with you on this, Chris. While I don't like Collins' solo albums at all, I have an appreciation for what he has given to prog rock and fusion, and think he deserves a place here. I wouldn't say every member of a prog band who goes solo as a pop artist deserves to be listed as prog-related, but Collins is a special case.
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Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 13 2014 at 20:06 |
Hell no. He never made a Prog album as a solo artist. He certainly does not belong in Crossover and he should not be given a honorary place just because he was in a Prog band and a Jazz-Fusion band - he is already here in those roles, that is not a reason or justification for adding him into Prog Related.
HOWEVER, his place in Prog Related is at the discretion of the Admins - if the current Admin team think he should be there that is their call - not yours, not mine, not ex-Admins such as myself or Tony or Bob or any of the other ex-Admins who opposed his addition in the past or anyone else with an opinion - it is not a matter that should be decided by consensus or public vote - it is up to the current Admins and them alone. Give them the respect they are bloody due.
Edited by Dean - March 13 2014 at 20:06
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What?
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Evolver
Special Collaborator
Crossover & JR/F/Canterbury Teams
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: The Idiocracy
Status: Offline
Points: 5482
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Posted: March 13 2014 at 20:22 |
I see your point. And I got over it. I am at peace with that decision. See how easy that was?
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Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
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