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ExittheLemming 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
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 Posted: September 15 2011 at 11:00 |
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^ Mmm...isn't there a possibility that one man's kitsch is another man's knowingly derivative?
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thehallway
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 13 2010
Location: Dorset, England
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Points: 1433
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Posted: September 15 2011 at 11:10 |
 ExittheLemming wrote:
^ Mmm...isn't there a possibility that one man's kitsch is another man's knowingly derivative?
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Yes. What is The Court of the Crimson King derivative of though?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19557
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Posted: September 15 2011 at 11:21 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
^ Mmm...isn't there a possibility that one man's kitsch is another man's knowingly derivative?
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For me the perfect example of kitsch is this:
A 20 bucks plaque copy of the last supper hanging in your dinning room (As most Peruvians had thinking it was a work of art).
Or having this 24 bucks framed Mona Lisa poster hanging on your living room
But even the most derivative song of any genre, can't be kitsch, because even the simplest one has something original the author added.
Iván
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thellama73
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Posted: September 15 2011 at 11:21 |
thehallway wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
^ Mmm...isn't there a possibility that one man's kitsch is another man's knowingly derivative?
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Yes. What is The Court of the Crimson King derivative of though? |
They use 4/4 time and a guitar. That's totally been done before.
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The Hemulen
Special Collaborator
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Joined: July 31 2004
Location: UK
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Posted: September 15 2011 at 11:23 |
thehallway wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
^ Mmm...isn't there a possibility that one man's kitsch is another man's knowingly derivative?
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Yes. What is The Court of the Crimson King derivative of though? |
I don't know the specifics, and I'm not as well acquainted with everything on that album as I probably ought to be, but I think I'm right in saying it's an album which emerged broadly out of psychedelic rock, with a good sprinkling of jazz. It's innovative, for sure, but it's not an album totally without precedent. Nothing is created in a vacuum.
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thehallway
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 13 2010
Location: Dorset, England
Status: Offline
Points: 1433
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Posted: September 15 2011 at 11:29 |
The Hemulen wrote:
thehallway wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
^ Mmm...isn't there a possibility that one man's kitsch is another man's knowingly derivative?
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Yes. What is The Court of the Crimson King derivative of though? |
I don't know the specifics, and I'm not as well acquainted with everything on that album as I probably ought to be, but I think I'm right in saying it's an album which emerged broadly out of psychedelic rock, with a good sprinkling of jazz. It's innovative, for sure, but it's not an album totally without precedent. Nothing is created in a vacuum.
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Well, of course you're right, but by that argument, everything is kitsch!  As for the 4/4.... it's a perfectly good time signature that's almost essential to music, original or otherwise. To condemn that would be a bit like calling any art kitsch if it uses paint.
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
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Points: 11420
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Posted: September 15 2011 at 11:30 |
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I agree. Kitsch requires a widely recognisable reference point (cliché) that is used so far outside its context to be considered risible. As you say, ITCOTCK (and the Prog pioneers) can only be viewed in the light of kitsch if their original innovations are transposed into another completely inappropriate medium (like an album cover reproduced on bathroom towels) Excuse me now as I've just got to phone the patents office....
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: September 15 2011 at 11:36 |
thehallway wrote:
The Hemulen wrote:
thehallway wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
^ Mmm...isn't there a possibility that one man's kitsch is another man's knowingly derivative?
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Yes. What is The Court of the Crimson King derivative of though? |
I don't know the specifics, and I'm not as well acquainted with everything on that album as I probably ought to be, but I think I'm right in saying it's an album which emerged broadly out of psychedelic rock, with a good sprinkling of jazz. It's innovative, for sure, but it's not an album totally without precedent. Nothing is created in a vacuum.
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Well, of course you're right, but by that argument, everything is kitsch! As for the 4/4.... it's a perfectly good time signature that's almost essential to music, original or otherwise. To condemn that would be a bit like calling any art kitsch if it uses paint. |
That was kind of my point. I was making a joke. 
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thehallway
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 13 2010
Location: Dorset, England
Status: Offline
Points: 1433
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Posted: September 15 2011 at 11:37 |
thellama73 wrote:
thehallway wrote:
The Hemulen wrote:
thehallway wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
^ Mmm...isn't there a possibility that one man's kitsch is another man's knowingly derivative?
|
Yes. What is The Court of the Crimson King derivative of though? |
I don't know the specifics, and I'm not as well acquainted with everything on that album as I probably ought to be, but I think I'm right in saying it's an album which emerged broadly out of psychedelic rock, with a good sprinkling of jazz. It's innovative, for sure, but it's not an album totally without precedent. Nothing is created in a vacuum.
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Well, of course you're right, but by that argument, everything is kitsch! As for the 4/4.... it's a perfectly good time signature that's almost essential to music, original or otherwise. To condemn that would be a bit like calling any art kitsch if it uses paint. |
That was kind of my point. I was making a joke.
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Jokes are so kitsch......
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AutumnWanderer
Forum Newbie
Joined: September 12 2011
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 27
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Posted: September 15 2011 at 17:42 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
I agree. Kitsch requires a widely recognisable reference point (cliché) that is used so far outside its context to be considered risible. As you say, ITCOTCK (and the Prog pioneers) can only be viewed in the light of kitsch if their original innovations are transposed into another completely inappropriate medium (like an album cover reproduced on bathroom towels) Excuse me now as I've just got to phone the patents office....
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Imagine a Going For The One bathtowel!
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jean-marie
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 27 2010
Location: FRANCE
Status: Offline
Points: 2585
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Posted: September 16 2011 at 04:20 |
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Listening back to some Heep old stuff....Yes it can be...
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FAIS QUE TON REVE SOIT PLUS LONG QUE LA NUIT HAVE YOUR DREAM LASTING LONGER THAN THE NIGHT
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yasko
Forum Newbie
Joined: September 04 2009
Location: belgium
Status: Offline
Points: 39
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Posted: September 20 2011 at 07:57 |
Hi there! pretty difficult question,
in mine opinion there is in every art form a kind of kitsh (wich mostly appear after the making of a big artwork)
pop art and especially the works of jeff koons have a very "kitsch" tendency,
to hear kitsch in music is very different, maybe the thousands of genesis clones can be called kitsch?...
another really kitsch kind of music is "muzak" in hotels, malls, trainstations. clasical melodies on cheezy organs and weak drums... you recognize the music but it is striped away from al its artistic power...
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Turillazzo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 31 2011
Location: Turin
Status: Offline
Points: 144
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Posted: September 21 2011 at 14:11 |
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I always thought kitsch was a word to define hironic imitations of pop. If so, hell yeah, Residents are pretty kitsch!
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King Crimson776
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 12 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2779
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Posted: September 22 2011 at 01:56 |
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You guys realize that some questions really are just insanely stupid and don't warrant a 3 page thread, right?
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AutumnWanderer
Forum Newbie
Joined: September 12 2011
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 27
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Posted: September 22 2011 at 03:32 |
I'm sure more has been written and discussed about sillier. 
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Icarium
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: March 21 2008
Location: Tigerstaden
Status: Offline
Points: 34076
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Posted: September 22 2011 at 03:53 |
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i prefear things made in a kitschen to manmade kitsch supposed art
Edited by aginor - September 22 2011 at 03:53
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Big Ears
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 08 2005
Location: Hants, England
Status: Offline
Points: 727
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Posted: September 22 2011 at 06:22 |
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The closest to kitsch that progressive rock musicians get is probably on their Christmas albums.
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40footwolf
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 08 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 651
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Posted: September 22 2011 at 21:35 |
Oh God yes, of course it is.
But like you said, that doesn't mean it's bad. Bruce Lee movies can be considered "kitsch" as well but that doesn't stop them from being some of the most well-crafted action films of all time.
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Heaven's made a cesspool of us all.
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Is prog kitsch?
