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Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Points: 36043
Posted: July 20 2011 at 10:33
thehallway wrote:
Logan wrote:
thehallway wrote:
rdtprog wrote:
thehallway wrote:
It's 2011.
Do people still need to have the objective/subjective argument?
Everybody knows that music is only ever going to be personal opinion. Why do we need so many threads to come to this conclusion?
So you fall again in the obejecte/subjective argument...
Music is personal opinion? I wouldn't define it that way.
-------------------------------- One's taste is subjective, but one can objectively analyse qualities of music within a framework.
You're wrong.
Objective analysis would be "This song has a guitar in it". That's not an opinion.
I'm wrong? One cannot objectively analyse the qualities (i.e. properties) of music within a framework? Sorry, but I don't understand your argument against my statement.
Joined: April 13 2010
Location: Dorset, England
Status: Offline
Points: 1433
Posted: July 20 2011 at 11:22
Logan wrote:
thehallway wrote:
Logan wrote:
thehallway wrote:
rdtprog wrote:
thehallway wrote:
It's 2011.
Do people still need to have the objective/subjective argument?
Everybody knows that music is only ever going to be personal opinion. Why do we need so many threads to come to this conclusion?
So you fall again in the obejecte/subjective argument...
Music is personal opinion? I wouldn't define it that way.
-------------------------------- One's taste is subjective, but one can objectively analyse qualities of music within a framework.
You're wrong.
Objective analysis would be "This song has a guitar in it". That's not an opinion.
I'm wrong? One cannot objectively analyse the qualities (i.e. properties) of music within a framework? Sorry, but I don't understand your argument against my statement.
You can name them, that's it. Analysis requires some kind of opinion I'm sure.
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Points: 36043
Posted: July 20 2011 at 14:14
thehallway wrote:
Logan wrote:
thehallway wrote:
Logan wrote:
thehallway wrote:
rdtprog wrote:
thehallway wrote:
It's 2011.
Do people still need to have the objective/subjective argument?
Everybody knows that music is only ever going to be personal opinion. Why do we need so many threads to come to this conclusion?
So you fall again in the obejecte/subjective argument...
Music is personal opinion? I wouldn't define it that way.
-------------------------------- One's taste is subjective, but one can objectively analyse qualities of music within a framework.
You're wrong.
Objective analysis would be "This song has a guitar in it". That's not an opinion.
I'm wrong? One cannot objectively analyse the qualities (i.e. properties) of music within a framework? Sorry, but I don't understand your argument against my statement.
You can name them, that's it. Analysis requires some kind of opinion I'm sure.
One can use analysis (say qualitative analysis) to determine the elements which does not require the analyser's opinion (though one might say that opinion helped to form the gfrawewok, guidelines. standards/ procedure). For instance, one might be given a vial of some substance to analyse to determine composition, is the result based on the scientist's opinion?
With music one might use analysis of the sounds to determine which instruments are being used, how much opinion is required to do so? One might apply a given framework of analysis that was developed by others, and opinion may well have played an important part in developing the framework, but the one using it need not apply their own opinions to the procedure.
Also, I'd say that the quality of a performance can be judged without the judger resorting to personal opinion. For instance, two pianists are asked to play Ligeti's Devil's Staircase as an entrance exam to a music school. The teacher gives them the music to play:
The first who has only started playing piano and is still trying to master Mary Has a Little Lamb played with one hand, misses all the notes, and can't even read the music, whereas the second plays it. One is the more skilled pianist, and I do believe that one can objectively say that is is the better pianist. Performance is a component of music, and I don't think it can all be about opinion. One person may prefer the newbie trying the Ligeti, but I would think if that person knows something about music that that person would recognise that one performance is superior (within the framework of the piece). I would say that one's exjoyment of music comes down to one's taste, but there's much more to music (understanding it, for instance, and being knowledgable about music theory) than personal opinion.
"Everybody knows that music is only ever going to be personal opinion" is a strange statement.
Joined: April 13 2010
Location: Dorset, England
Status: Offline
Points: 1433
Posted: July 20 2011 at 14:28
^
Your last paragraph talks about accuracy, not quality. Sorry to be pedantic, but quality, by definition (referring to how good or bad a thing is) can only be subjective. Quality against a pre-determined framework.... perhaps less so, but as you said, the framework of quality itself can be disagreed with by anyone, because it isn't factual. So it all comes back to opinion, whether it's mine, yours, the music teacher's, the students', the audience's, the Ligeti scholar's, or Ligeti's himself.
In any case, the practical meaning of my 'strange statement' in this context, really isn't strange at all. On PA, people review music, and I never have seen, and probably never will see, a totally objective review. If someone wrote one, I bet it would be of no use to anyone anyway.
Can you objectively analyse sound? This is a question that is beyond my level of understanding (and interest). You may be able to provide an answer to it, but that's philosophy, and in the practical world, and certainly in this thread that we've veered off of on such a wide tangent, what I said is true.
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Points: 36043
Posted: July 20 2011 at 14:37
There are machines that can analyse sound within set parameters, but how they do it does depend on how it's set up to do so (so one can say that biases are inherent to the nature of the program). It's an interesting topic to me. and it's not just philosophy, it's science.
Level of accuracy is a quality (factor) of the performance, and can be analysed in a largely objective fashion, subjectivity can also play a part.
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Points: 36043
Posted: July 20 2011 at 15:17
rdtprog wrote:
thehallway wrote:
Logan wrote:
...and it's not just philosophy, it's science...
Now you've completely lost my attention.
Music is science?
You
can judge the quality of a perfomance scientifically , but how can you
see what's separate a masterpiece of music from what's not a
masterpiece?
I never said that music is science, but there is a science of music, and
one can use science to analyse components of music. That was said in
regards to analysing sound (for instance, frequencies). As for your
question, while on-topic, it is not quite the concept I was exploring.
It relates, though, because I believe that one can judge music (specific
elements) within a given framework without losing all objectivity. Performance is but one element of music, but I find
it an easy one to convey the idea of how music can be fairly considered
better than another within set expectations.
I'm not sure, but it would have to involve Mellotrons.
Yes, good point!, maybe in favor of Logan the " Science Man ", i think the sound of a cd is a important factor on the quality level, and those mellotrons sound are so seductive... if not addictive....
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
Posted: July 20 2011 at 22:17
I understand what Logan is driving at here but the words "qualtitative analysis" are misleading because they seem to imply it being a controlled and objective process, like analysis of a rigidly scientific nature, which it is not because it's art and is concerned with expression which is in itself very subjective. But it is true that some opinions are generally speaking more valid than others. I cannot quantify said validity but I am intuitively aware of it and trust the opinions of those who sound more well informed and 'experienced' to me. I would trust what my father says about Western music about as much as what some of you folks might say about Indian music. Jokes apart, I guess we all do that but probably feel it is politically incorrect to say we judge or rely on other people's views on music, that's all. I would generally trust what a singer has to say about a vocal performance than the views of what somebody who I know is not very knowledgable about singing. These things however cannot be set in stone and are not hard and fast or factual and there may be times when I infer unreasonable bias or prejudice in the opinion of someone who is normally very erudite about a style of music or a band, as applicable. At the same time, we do rely on judgment for a lot of things and we do value the judgment of more experienced and intelligent persons in life so there's nothing wrong whatsoever in doing so in music too.
In a nutshell, yes, generally speaking, it does tell me a lot about what, say, some schoolkid knows about rock if he says he likes the Limp Bizkit version of Behind Blue Eyes more than The Who's original rendition. Yes, he is indeed entitled to his opinion because it's a free world but such a statement also tells me a lot about his tastes and I form my own impressions based on it. Again, this may not be politically correct but this is what most of us do and it's a practical approach. And the exception to this example is the kid may be biased about Who but may actually be quite well aware of rock music, so should I learn of this, I would revise my judgment. Obviously, one has to be flexible and open minded in these matters because it is based on how much information you have about a person (which may be incomplete) and it is a mistake to expect that such judgments would be cast in stone and irreversible.
Joined: July 20 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
Status: Offline
Points: 7281
Posted: July 21 2011 at 14:23
aginor wrote:
In a Glass House is to me a materpiece but it does not feature Mellotrons,
IAGH was supposed to have featured a Mellotron, but their M400 was in the shoppe at the time.....something about a pint of stout spilt onto the tape rack from what I've read....
Joined: January 25 2008
Location: Wisconsin
Status: Offline
Points: 8221
Posted: July 24 2011 at 20:22
I don't think a masterpiece of anything can be determined without a passage of time.
The impact of a piece of music is different over time--especially emotionally. If the impact remains high (goosebumps, mood alteration, attention-grabbing, etc.) over time, then a piece can be determined to have "mastery" over me and the things that seem to continue to bring me value.
Having said this, I believe an album should not be able to qualify for ranking lists until it has been reviewed (not just rated) over 100 times and until it has been available to the public for at least six months.
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thehallway wrote:
Jokes apart, I guess we all do that but probably feel it is politically incorrect to say we judge or rely on other people's views on music, that's all. I would generally trust what a singer has to say about a vocal performance than the views of what somebody who I know is not very knowledgable about singing. These things however cannot be set in stone and are not hard and fast or factual and there may be times when I infer unreasonable bias or prejudice in the opinion of someone who is normally very erudite about a style of music or a band, as applicable. At the same time, we do rely on judgment for a lot of things and we do value the judgment of more experienced and intelligent persons in life so there's nothing wrong whatsoever in doing so in music too.
