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rogerthat View Drop Down
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2011 at 22:46
Originally posted by Tapfret Tapfret wrote:

^So which part of that had anything to do with what I said? DT? Al DiMeola? lulwut?
 
 
Come now, what does "writing reviews of landmark prog metal innovators decrying them as non-prog" imply here if not DT?  Just because you didn't name names here doesn't mean the implication is not very obvious.  At the very most, you'd have been talking about maybe Opeth, but let's not get into points of detail here.
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Points: 8581 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2011 at 00:16
Sorry your view of progmetal landmarks is limited to those 2 bands. Try taking things at face value instead of reading what you want into other peoples' statements. There is nothing more to be gained from this conversation. 

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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2011 at 00:24
Originally posted by Tapfret Tapfret wrote:

Sorry your view of progmetal landmarks is limited to those 2 bands. Try taking things at face value instead of reading what you want into other peoples' statements. There is nothing more to be gained from this conversation. 
 
Right, you covered yourself ab initio by not naming names, so I can't probe deeper anyway and since my point, being that not everybody thinks the only valid epoch of prog metal or prog in a metal context is the one that is popularly understood, has been made, I will drop this.
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Points: 492 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2011 at 05:18
My problem - in my own head - is that when I see some bands represented on the site in any fashion in any category who common sense tells me are not prog then I decry the fact that certain bands who many have rabidly argued on behalf of in the past still aren't represented. The door for unhapiness in that regard will always be open while the non prog inclusions are represented here.
Why Malmsteen and Stratovarius are not here yet why Queen, Kamelot, Metallica etc  are here will always be a problem for some. It's ok to reject a band like Strat but don't do that and then allow fanboys to review Queen or Metallica or some such non prog, never will be and never has been band here.
John Miles's track "Music (was my first love) is one of the prog classic tracks and it aint here - yet I can happily find reference to Queen's Radio Gaga.
Kamelot will always have a place in my cd rack but they are not prog to my ears, Magnum is a band which I absolutely adore but they aren't prog to my ears other than very vaguely so on some tracks. Stratovarius is a band which I like to listen to now and then and I will argue the prog argument on their behalf until I turn blue and have to have an oxygen mask fitted.
Journey - I love Journey's music - prog? - never.
 
Anyway rant over Embarrassed
 
Don't all queue up now to beat on me Ouch
 
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Points: 34055 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2011 at 05:58
Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:

My problem - in my own head - is that when I see some bands represented on the site in any fashion in any category who common sense tells me are not prog then I decry the fact that certain bands who many have rabidly argued on behalf of in the past still aren't represented. The door for unhapiness in that regard will always be open while the non prog inclusions are represented here.
Why Malmsteen and Stratovarius are not here yet why Queen, Kamelot, Metallica etc  are here will always be a problem for some. It's ok to reject a band like Strat but don't do that and then allow fanboys to review Queen or Metallica or some such non prog, never will be and never has been band here.
John Miles's track "Music (was my first love) is one of the prog classic tracks and it aint here - yet I can happily find reference to Queen's Radio Gaga.
Kamelot will always have a place in my cd rack but they are not prog to my ears, Magnum is a band which I absolutely adore but they aren't prog to my ears other than very vaguely so on some tracks. Stratovarius is a band which I like to listen to now and then and I will argue the prog argument on their behalf until I turn blue and have to have an oxygen mask fitted.
Journey - I love Journey's music - prog? - never.
 
Anyway rant over Embarrassed
 
Don't all queue up now to beat on me Ouch
 
  I don't know about you but to me this is progressive rock (heavy prog as such)
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Points: 492 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2011 at 06:20
Innuendo is one of the tracks that does show me vague prog leanings but what was the band at its core? - I think that that is important. Queen were at times pop, at times stadium rock and very early on glam metal. Liar and Great King Rat are among my all time favorite tracks. They along with tracks like Innuendo and Bohemian Rhapsody, I think, spur a prog argument but one or two warm days don't make a summer. Hell, I could argue that most "pop" artists have done a few tracks that I would term prog or proggish - I definitely wouldn't term them prog.
I was dared once to suggest Korn, which I did, just to add a bit of humor (it worked) lol. I would definately not seriously suggest them although their one album "Issues" makes for potential valid debate.
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Points: 15 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2011 at 07:42
Originally posted by ProgBob ProgBob wrote:

My interpretation of what he was saying - and I must admit it took me a while as I think it might have been expressed a little more clearly - is that a lot of stuff that is good gets downgraded simply because it is not really prog. He is using the example of a fan of Italian prog who reviews one of these 'non-prog' albums and gives it a bad review simply because it doesn't conform with his idea of prog. I think he is saying that it would be better if such albums weren't here or if they were placed in some category that makes it obvious that they should not be reviewed as prog albums.  ( In my opinion, Prog-related already serves that need. )

Anyway that's just my interpretation and maybe I have completely misunderstood the point.
 
Yeah I think it was  fairly clear for those who concentrated on what was actually written. Never said Italian prog wasn't legit, just expressed a dislike.
 
Just expressing a wish, not a demand. Sorry about picking on Italian prog, just a knee jerk reaction to some of the prog related ratings  I'd read. Didn't know whether to laugh or cry, to be honest. The upshot for me I suppose is that I can't take the overall concensus on this site as any kind of recommendation. All I can do is take the time to get to know the taste of particular reviewers. 
 
Diamond Dogs 3.36 (I couldn't believe itLOL)
Unhalfbricking 3.48 (Stll recovering from this one)
Moonmadness 4.36 (I play guitar  a bit, this is the kind of noodling you play and think no one would be interested in. It aspires to be second rate - and thats at best.)Sleepy
 
 
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Points: 952 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2011 at 07:49
Originally posted by KarmaMan KarmaMan wrote:

Originally posted by ProgBob ProgBob wrote:

My interpretation of what he was saying - and I must admit it took me a while as I think it might have been expressed a little more clearly - is that a lot of stuff that is good gets downgraded simply because it is not really prog. He is using the example of a fan of Italian prog who reviews one of these 'non-prog' albums and gives it a bad review simply because it doesn't conform with his idea of prog. I think he is saying that it would be better if such albums weren't here or if they were placed in some category that makes it obvious that they should not be reviewed as prog albums.  ( In my opinion, Prog-related already serves that need. )

Anyway that's just my interpretation and maybe I have completely misunderstood the point.

 
Yeah I think it was  fairly clear for those who concentrated on what was actually written. Never said Italian prog wasn't legit, just expressed a dislike.
 


I have to admit, I didn't feel that your point was clearly expressed at all.  Though it's clear that you can express yourself quite reasonably, as evidenced by your second post.  Try make em all like that I guess, as you know what it's like reading text online. No tone of voice, lots of room for misinterpretation.
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Points: 15 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2011 at 08:44
Originally posted by dreadpirateroberts dreadpirateroberts wrote:


That's a good point, I'd hate to see the Archives shrink. I like a lot of musical styles and when I'm not in the mood for something which might be called 'straight prog' (if such a thing exists) I come here and investigate all the related artists/genres.
 
And  would subsequently be subjected to hopelessly skewed views on the artistic merits of said artists/genres.
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Points: 952 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2011 at 08:57
Nah, I'm pretty good at making my own calls on music, with or without reviews. And this is only one place I seek out reviews on albums.
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Points: 9669 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2011 at 09:52
Tapfret, I love the "backside" of the album in your sig! Ha!  LOL
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Points: 8581 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2011 at 00:45
Originally posted by Peter Peter wrote:

Tapfret, I love the "backside" of the album in your sig! Ha!  LOL


Thanks. It is my understanding that the original cover art was submitted with this on the back but was rejected by EMI.

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Points: 28412 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2011 at 01:52
Originally posted by Tapfret Tapfret wrote:

Originally posted by Peter Peter wrote:

Tapfret, I love the "backside" of the album in your sig! Ha!  LOL


Thanks. It is my understanding that the original cover art was submitted with this on the back but was rejected by EMI.
 
what a pity. Its absolute geniusClap
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Points: 2134 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2011 at 04:30
Always struggle to find the prog in bands like Jefferson Airplane, Queen, Led Zeppelin, Metallica (edit: and David Bowie). Can only hope their addition to the site attract people otherwise unknown to prog. If they are here the reasoning behind it should be clear. It's seems that sooner or later every band in my record collection will end up in PA, just because I happen to have it.  PA has turned out like this anyway.... so when will Elton John be added?

Edited by earlyprog - July 08 2011 at 04:40
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2011 at 04:47
Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Always struggle to find the prog in bands like Jefferson Airplane, Queen, Led Zeppelin, Metallica (edit: and David Bowie). Can only hope their addition to the site attract people otherwise unknown to prog. If they are here the reasoning behind it should be clear. It's seems that sooner or later every band in my record collection will end up in PA, just because I happen to have it.  PA has turned out like this anyway.... so when will Elton John be added?
 
 
Well, I am certainly not able to foresee a day when Aerosmith, Motorhead, AC DC, Slipknot or, on the pop front, Carpenters,Celine Dion etc would be added to the progarchives.  The point being that there would always be a clear line between basic, rudimentary rock or pop music on the one hand and sophisticated rock on the other.  Drawing a line within the sophisticated rock basket as to what does and does not constitute prog is very subjective. And as long as the policy of not deleting bands once added continues, the push will always be towards inclusiveness rather than exclusiveness. And yeah, given the current profile of bands added to different genres in the database, I cannot see a clear and strict demarcation between prog and non-prog (within sophisticated rock) so I personally have no problem with LZ or Metallica's presence. I am not saying you shouldn't, this is just my way of looking at it and we know progheads on the subject of what is prog are like economists  - simply can't agree with each other.
 
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Points: 952 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2011 at 07:43
Aren't our labels for things so very, very precious?       

It's interesting that many music fans treat genres as 'uncontested spaces' and spend significant effort contracting and delineating them.

But I'd argue that all genres are hybrid and therefore we should accept that certain albums may fit into more than one genre. Wink
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Points: 28412 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2011 at 15:52
Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Always struggle to find the prog in bands like Jefferson Airplane, Queen, Led Zeppelin, Metallica (edit: and David Bowie). Can only hope their addition to the site attract people otherwise unknown to prog. If they are here the reasoning behind it should be clear. It's seems that sooner or later every band in my record collection will end up in PA, just because I happen to have it.  PA has turned out like this anyway.... so when will Elton John be added?
already been discussed and probbaly will happen
 
Nowadays there is very little in my collection that isn't here. Most bands like the ones you mention are only here because a lot of people like them. If Queen or LZ had never been that popular then they wouldn't be here imo.
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Points: 1584 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2011 at 16:23
I immensely prefer that the "prog-related" requirements (and even crossover prog) are more open rather than restrictive.  
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Points: 1584 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2011 at 16:25
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

 
 
Nowadays there is very little in my collection that isn't here. Most bands like the ones you mention are only here because a lot of people like them. If Queen or LZ had never been that popular then they wouldn't be here imo.

I agree, but that is one of the purposes of prog-related.  Bands who have greatly influenced prog artists.
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Points: 15 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2011 at 17:52
Originally posted by Eärendil Eärendil wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

 
 
Nowadays there is very little in my collection that isn't here. Most bands like the ones you mention are only here because a lot of people like them. If Queen or LZ had never been that popular then they wouldn't be here imo.

I agree, but that is one of the purposes of prog-related.  Bands who have greatly influenced prog artists.
 
I look forward (do I?) to Dylans inclusion.
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