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Blacksword View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2010 at 21:17
Well, I'm all for a fair trial for all those accused. If found guilty, string them up from their holy f***ing ballsacks. If the pope is 'proved' to have been complicit in covering up the actions of paedo priests, then he should be taken out and shot in St Peters square before all his adoring masses.

That will then be a detterent to all those who believe they can hide behind 'The Lord' when raping children.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2010 at 21:24
I've not bothered to read any other post. But here goes, replace "the Catholic Church" with "IBM: , Apple", "Microsoft", "Boy Scouts" or any other big organization - would heads be rolling if any one in authority knowingly hid pedophiles, in some case by simply re-assigning or re-locating the offenders ?

Any & all priests, bishops, cardinals, Vatican officials, and yes, even the Pope who can be proven to have known and approved of such actions should be held legally liable & responsible.

Nuff Said !
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2010 at 21:25

I don't think you're going to find anybody in the world who would say that priests should have the ability to molest with impunity.

One thing to keep in mind with these reports, though, is that in most cases the abuse doesn't come out until decades later, when it's sort of too late. I can't say for certain, but it was my understanding that Ratzinger and the others didn't bother to defrock the Wisconsin guy because he was already dying, which think is why the police also didn't prosecute. Presumably the victims themselves went to the police, and I don't see how the Church could shield him once people were speaking out: the Pope may be the head of a sovereign state and therefore more or less immune from prosecution, but some guy from Wisconsin isn't.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2010 at 22:15
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Yes someone could possible misinterpret a part of a quote that  has been translated several times over two millennia which was originally written by someone who never heard Jesus speak. Damn that Jesus guy. 
I think that is wrong......of all the people he would be ashamed of these atrocities. Divine intervention should have happened a long time ago. Major creative flaw in the fabric of existence.

Edited by Chris S - April 04 2010 at 04:45
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2010 at 05:51
Ivan,
 
I realise your posts were intended for Drew, however...  I think most people will accept this isn't a problem solely for the Catholic Church, but the issue here is that there was an attempted cover-up by the Vatican. The Vatican has defended Cardinal Ratzinger, stating he did more than anyone to have these beasts brought to justice. It has also stated that abuse of minors is among the most serious of sins... as if any decent human being wouldn't know that already! 
 
The spiritual leader of English Protestants has attacked the Catholic Church in Ireland, and the Free Church of Scotland sees the Pope as the anti-Christ. As citizens we should be concerned for all children regardless of creed. However, as I previously stated, I question the wisdom of these attacks and i think your post adds weight to that argument. Still, this doesn't change the fact that there are those within the Catholic Church that have allowed beasts to move from parish to parish abusing children. There can be no more cover-ups, but I doubt we will ever know the truth about how high these allegations go.     
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2010 at 09:00
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

I don't think you're going to find anybody in the world who would say that priests should have the ability to molest with impunity.

Unfortunate, you are wrong. But those who advocate this view just use some other words for it. Words and views that many others, who abhor child molestations, would agree with.

Child molestations is not only restricted to religious movements. Political movements also have their fair share of this problem. It was rife in Rogue Khmer under Pol Pot in Cambodia. Mao Tse Tung  shared bed with very young girls. Various fascist movements have had their scandals. Mostly with young boys.  

Organised sports also had a big child molestation problem until some very nasty crime cases put this on the agenda. That's why everyone who is involved is thorough vetted by the police. And rightly so.

What angers me with organised religion is all the cover ups and their disdain for the most basic principles of their respective religions. That goes for all nominations and all religions. That's why I have a Christian faith, but do not want to be a part of anything organised. I am in peace with God and that's it.    


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2010 at 09:23
I don't think the coverup is just a problem with the church.  Yes, it is reprehensible, but how many spouses who know their husbands are molesting their children turn a blind eye.  How many neighbors highly suspect another neighbor of child abuse but do nothing.  I think the problem is that the law provides no penalties for those who know or have evidence of abuse but do not act.  At the very least, if a child comes to you and reports abuse, and you do not report it to the authorities, it shouldn't matter if your the suspects spouse, a priest, a bishop or a neighbor, you should be prosecuted for aiding and abetting child abuse.  Children are unable to defend themselves and often turn to adults they think they can trust for help.  Failure to provide that help, by reporting it to the authorities, is almost as reprehensible as those who perpetrate their depraved acts against the defenseless.  Those who knew what was going on in the church but did nothing and covered it up should be prosecuted, but its not just a problem with the church.  It is a problem with all of society.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2010 at 09:47

I totally agree with The Doctor.

Let me also make it clear that I have no problems with the catholics or the Catholic church whatsoever. I respect them and I treat them with the utmost friendliness. But as with alcoholics; a good friend does not give the alcoholic more alcohol. A good friend tries to cure the illness. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2010 at 09:53
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

I don't think the coverup is just a problem with the church.  Yes, it is reprehensible, but how many spouses who know their husbands are molesting their children turn a blind eye.  How many neighbors highly suspect another neighbor of child abuse but do nothing.  I think the problem is that the law provides no penalties for those who know or have evidence of abuse but do not act.  At the very least, if a child comes to you and reports abuse, and you do not report it to the authorities, it shouldn't matter if your the suspects spouse, a priest, a bishop or a neighbor, you should be prosecuted for aiding and abetting child abuse.  Children are unable to defend themselves and often turn to adults they think they can trust for help.  Failure to provide that help, by reporting it to the authorities, is almost as reprehensible as those who perpetrate their depraved acts against the defenseless.  Those who knew what was going on in the church but did nothing and covered it up should be prosecuted, but its not just a problem with the church.  It is a problem with all of society.


Although I agree with the broad gist of your post I do think there is an aspect to this that has reared its ugly head in the past. During the early 90's I lived and worked on Orkney (a small island off the north coast of Scotland) where 9 children from the remote village of South Ronaldsay reported ritualistic abuse to social workers and were subsequently forcibly taken into foster care via a dawn raid of their respective homes. When the case came to trial it was found that there was not a shred of evidence to support the claims of the children and that many of the social workers who conducted the interviews were found to be culpable of wilfully extracting false testimonies from their interviewees. (You have to remember that the media hysteria re Satanic Child Abuse was at its peak at this time and the UK care professions were awash in theoretical literature from the US outlining the detection of such abuses)

I certainly would not condone in any way dismissing such claims out of hand and like everyone who has posted in this thread, find the actions of such individuals utterly repugnant.  However, you must appreciate that everyone becomes a witch during a witch hunt. It would be practically impossible to implement legislation that compelled an individual to report to the authorities their suspicions, however remote, as to possible abuses. The concept of hearsay is still applicable in law i.e. in a criminal case it does not (without some notable exceptions) constitute evidence.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2010 at 10:38
Originally posted by jampa17 jampa17 wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Yes someone could possible misinterpret a part of a quote that  has been translated several times over two millennia which was originally written by someone who never heard Jesus speak. Damn that Jesus guy. 
 
Yeah... fun... but, what that have to do with the current topic...? really... I don't see any link at all with the current subject...

Really? I thought it was a direct response to that post right above that. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2010 at 11:18
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

I don't think the coverup is just a problem with the church.  Yes, it is reprehensible, but how many spouses who know their husbands are molesting their children turn a blind eye.  How many neighbors highly suspect another neighbor of child abuse but do nothing.  I think the problem is that the law provides no penalties for those who know or have evidence of abuse but do not act.  At the very least, if a child comes to you and reports abuse, and you do not report it to the authorities, it shouldn't matter if your the suspects spouse, a priest, a bishop or a neighbor, you should be prosecuted for aiding and abetting child abuse.  Children are unable to defend themselves and often turn to adults they think they can trust for help.  Failure to provide that help, by reporting it to the authorities, is almost as reprehensible as those who perpetrate their depraved acts against the defenseless.  Those who knew what was going on in the church but did nothing and covered it up should be prosecuted, but its not just a problem with the church.  It is a problem with all of society.
 
That's a good point:
 
I found this statistics in the Children  Health Encyclopedia under rape
 
Quote

Demographics

The 2000 Victim, Incident, and Offender Characteristics, published by the National Center for Juvenile Justice (NCJJ), analyzed sexual assault data collected by law enforcement agencies over a five-year span. The following characteristics were found to be significant among victims of sexual assault:

  • Age: Over two-thirds of reported victims of sexual assault were juveniles under the age of 18. Adolescents aged 12 to 18 years represented the largest group of victims at 33 percent; 20 percent were between the ages of six and 11; children younger than five years old and adults between 18 and 24 years of age each constituted 14 percent of victims. One out of every seven victims surveyed in the study was under the age of six.
  • Gender: Females were more than six times more likely to be a victim of sexual assault than males; more than 86 percent of victims were females. The great majority (99%) of the victims of forcible rapes were women, while men constituted the majority (54%) of the victims of forcible sodomy (oral or anal intercourse). Females are most likely to be the victim of sexual assault at age 14, while males are at most risk at age four.
  • Location: The residence of the victim was the most commonly noted location of sexual assault (70%). Other common locations included schools, hotels/motels, fields, woods, parking lots, roadways, and commercial/office buildings.

Similar statistics were gathered by the NCJJ regarding the perpetrators of rape and sexual assault. These characteristics included the following:

  • Age: Over 23 percent of offenders were under the age of 18; juveniles were more likely to be perpetrators of forcible sodomy and fondling. The remaining 77 percent of offenders were adults and were responsible for 67 percent of juvenile victims. For younger juvenile victims (under the age of 12), juvenile offenders were responsible for approximately 40 percent of assaults.
  • Gender: The great majority of all reported offenders were male (96%). The number of female offenders rose for victims under the age of six (12%), in contrast to 6 percent for victims aged six through 12, 3 percent for victims aged 12 through 17, and 1 percent for adult victims.
  • Relationship with offender: Approximately 59 percent of offenders were acquaintances of their victims, compared to family members (27%) or strangers (14%). Family members were more likely to be perpetrators against juveniles (34%) than against adults (12%). In contrast, strangers accounted for 27 percent of adult victims and 7 percent of juveniles.
  • Past offenses: In 19 percent of juvenile cases, the victim was not the only individual to be assaulted by the offender, compared to only 4 percent of adult cases.
 
So, 70% of the rapes to minors happen IN THEIR OWN HOUSES (Family, friends, teachers, etc), Churches, parrishs, etc aren't even mentioned.
 
But people place emphasis on the Catholic Church, not only any Church, but a specific one, when parents and friends are more likely to be rapists.
 
This doesn't excuse the rapist priests, but proves what the Doctor said, the problem is in human nature, no matter what the occupation of the rapest is.
 
There are 10 times more teachers ACCUSED of rape than priests, but nobody talks about closing schools, the number of rapist parents is incredibly higher, but nobody talks about taking all the kids from their parents.
 
Lets put things in it's place, rape happens anywhere,but a Catholic Priest sells more in a country like USA where the Catholics are a minority and when some "self proclaimed Churches" live to attack the Catholic Church.
 
There's another problem, the biggest scandals are in USA, where courts pay millions for anything, parents settle with rapists for a large amount of money or even worst innocent public figures pay millions to avoid scandals....I don't know if Michael Jackson was guilty or not...But would any of you would send your kid to sleep to a house of man suspicious of raping?
 
Don't you believe this people sent their kids praying they were molested and gain a lot of money?
 
I studied in a Catholic school as nearly 10% of Lima students go to Catholic schools, but there's NOT ONE CASE OF RAPE, maybe because our courts  pay shˇt  to victims.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 04 2010 at 11:46
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2010 at 11:22
Right, here's the deal.

Paedophilia, as the vast majority agree, is wrong.

Priests, no matter what your belief is, are no better than the rest of us.

Meaning, we should all get the same treatment.

Making the fact that priests get away with paedophilia, and a member of the public gets a lengthy prison sentence, disgusting.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2010 at 11:41
Originally posted by The Pessimist The Pessimist wrote:


Making the fact that priests get away with paedophilia, and a member of the public gets a lengthy prison sentence, disgusting.
 
About 1,200 priests were taken to courts in USA because of Paedophilia, less than 2% were convicted,
 
This means
  1. 41,406 (2006) Priests in USA
  2. 1,200 accused 2.89% of the total number
  3. Less than 2% OF THE ACCUSED were convicted or settled 
  4. This means 0.04% of the USA priests were convicted or settled
  5. We talk about 34% of rapist family members

You say a member of the public gets a lenghty prison..You live in fantasy, as lawyer I know this, only zbout 10% of the rape cases reach court, and I'm talking about general public, because kids hardly will accuse their parents, friends and family, plus the public humliation they suffer.

Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 04 2010 at 11:47
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2010 at 11:45
Innocent until proven guilty, but you have to go to trial...
Hiding behind your religion, unacceptable.


Edited by Slartibartfast - April 04 2010 at 11:50
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2010 at 12:03
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Innocent until proven guilty, but you have to go to trial...
 
Starti, please tell me what's the chance of a priest accused of rapé to get a fair trial?
 
  1. The public has convicted them before the trial
  2. The media accuses them publicly
  3. Some churches like the Westboro Baptist Church publish aberrations like
    Quote Priests Rape Boys: an air-tight, three word case against the Catholic church. The Catholic Church is the largest, most well-funded and organized pedophile group in the history of man!   http://www.godhatesfags.com/ 
  4. Other Churches like Jesus is Saviour publish aberrations like http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/high_aids_toll_among_priests.htm (Priests have 4 times more AIDS than general population Angry )
  5. Or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6yDuxzjpxE

People read this in daily bases so why amazes you that some priests have to settle?

They won't get a fair trial in many cases.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 04 2010 at 12:09
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2010 at 12:08
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Innocent until proven guilty, but you have to go to trial...
 
Starti, please tell me what's the chance of a priest accused of rapé to get a fair trial?
 
Iván

The more well you're known, the harder it is to get a fair trial.  The poorer you are, it's just the same.  If you're stuck in the middle you're f**ked.  Still I support our judicial system warts and all.


Edited by Slartibartfast - April 04 2010 at 12:09
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2010 at 13:04
Slarti's quote from Lord Acton re absolute power corrupting absolutely, and also Micky's comments resonate with me a lot.

People need to think that it is not the religion or the beliefs themselves that are intrinsically rotten and corrupt, it is the institution of the church itself.

There is a famous quote from the 19th Century (I forget who by) by an English Protestant when, visiting the Inquisition chambers in Europe, turned to his companion, a devout Catholic, and said; "I really believe that there must be a divine and beautiful purpose to the universal church, one that carries an insurmountable truth, because only such a truth could escape such barbarity and cruelty".

That is, of course, from memory, but you get the gist. It's the people who are evil and the institutions where they ferment power, but I do still believe in the overall message of goodness and redemption, in spite of all that the world has to throw at us.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2010 at 13:13
Any person in a position of trust and care of children that abuses that trust must be tried and put away if guilty.
Any organisation that would impair or block the pursuit of justice and truth are accessories.  I do not limit this to the churches.   

The biggest problem with abuse is that for the most part is that is passed from generation to the next. Until we as a society decide enough is enough than this will continue. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2010 at 13:26
Originally posted by Garion81 Garion81 wrote:

Any person in a position of trust and care of children that abuses that trust must be tried and put away if guilty.
Any organisation that would impair or block the pursuit of justice and truth are accessories.  I do not limit this to the churches.   

The biggest problem with abuse is that for the most part is that is passed from generation to the next. Until we as a society decide enough is enough than this will continue. 
 
I agree 100%, burn them if guilty, but first you need evidence, not just press articles or testimonies without prove.
 
In the same way I believe that if a Priest, teacher or whatever is accused and hung by the press (as it usually happens), the same press should clean the name of the person in first page if found innocent.
 
But this doesn't happen, I read rapist priest hundreeds of times in first page, but when 98% of this accused are found innocent...The same press says nothing.
 
A rapist priest sells, an innocent one doesn't.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 04 2010 at 13:27
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2010 at 13:35
^ Agreed Ivan, tried in the press happens way to often.  Still there is the underlying evil that if not brought to light will continue to haunt society and it's children.  We have to be better, all of us, press, criminal justice systems, lawmakers and citizens. 


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