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Topic ClosedWhy are we such bigots? (or are we?)

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The T View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 11:34
BLUT AUS NORD
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angelmk View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 11:42
^^ their last album  Memoria Vetusta II Dialogue With The Stars is just fantastic, i am starting to like this band
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 12:41
It isn't bigotry to dislike other types of music - perhaps the wrong word to use, but I do certainly loathe personally rasp/hip hop and mass produced pulp pop. To me it is like the difference between Jilly Cooper or Jackie Collins (mass produced pulp novels) to good literature. The former I hate, the latter I enjoy and relish.

That is not to say that the consumers of such stuff are automatically inferior. At the end of the day, Simon Cowell has made an absolute fortune from producing pop to millions. I might not like it, but I long ago gave up trying to fight it - probably about the same time I realised that the UK wasn't going to have the promised revolution after allCry

I do, though, take great exception to the misogyny that is present in much rap, present day pop videos, and hip hop. I'm not a prude, not by any stretch of the imagination, but I would like my son to grow up with a healthy respect for women, and not just see them as a fantasy piece gyrating for all and sundry to ogle.

I am just an unashamed snob when it comes to TV, music, and literature. Not a bigot, just a snob.

Now then...can someone promise me that revolution?LOL


Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org

Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 13:38
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

 
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

I'm sure that in no POP site people jump to defend Prog when the music we like is attacked...why must we?



because we're not bigots

I am!  I hate Venutians!
 
And don't get me started on those nasty Neptunians.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 13:55
Originally posted by fighting sleep fighting sleep wrote:

I'm not sure if this topic belongs here, but I'm wondering if I'm alone in my defense of other genres of music besides prog, particularly rap/hip-hop and country/folk music. These genres seem to take regular blows from members of this community, and the only reason I can think of to account for this is the bulk of garbage that is the mainstream music scene.


However, the same applies to other genres of music. I've been listening to a lot of rap and hip hop recently, and I love what I've managed to find that I like because there is a lot of creativity in the music some of these underground and alternative artists are doing.

So I pose my question to those people who don't have a problem with writing off rap or country with insulting comments; can you justify that level of bigotry with actual experience listening to the music? I'm looking for reasonable arguments against accepting these forms of music.

And to the main body of the community: what do progressive rock listeners think of these genres and our attitudes toward them?


 
I don't listen to rap and hip-hop precisely because the few mainstream/MTV songs I've heard didn't speak to me. And in some cases, I've found the videos down right offensive... I haven't bothered to listen to more. I guess I should, but there's so many other styles I wish to investigate further and that particular genre is just not on my priority list.
 
As for folk and country, well, folk is one of my favourite genre, but I was pretty stubborn when it came to country music, and really didn't want to listen to any of it, except for Johnny Cash and The Carter Family, but it just sneaked up on me. I got two Sonny Landreth (who I'm completely in awe of) albums 2 weeks ago and had a bit of a shock when I realised, loading them onto my computer, that iTunes actually lists him as "country". Shocked
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 14:03
The thing is, the thread starter brought forward a few examples of 'good' rap, which I remember being mentioned here on PA on other occasions by people who know a thing or two about music. I'm quite sure no one would mention the worst gangsta rap in order to defend the genre - from the little I know, it is 'music' that degrades women and promotes violence, so it would get the big thumbs-down from me anyway. I can understand disliking the style, though - this is a very personal thing, as I know very well, having a very particular approach to music. As much as I know that Willie Nelson is miles and miles above what passes for 'country' today, that particular musical style is just not my cup of tea, and I'd rather listen to something else altogether. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 14:23
 
i agree with the spirit of your post Raff. Smile But I disagree that there can be a judge of "good rap" vs "bad rap". Even women-degrading rap, as you call it, might have fans, even violence-promoting rap might have fans... all of that is very sociological and needs deeper analisys... What I'm trying to say is, we may not like something, but that doesn't mean we can judge what other people like.
 
Prog fans are not bigots. They're just jealous of the commercial  fortunes popular artists have. Why? Because it makes us feel special.


Edited by The T - June 24 2009 at 14:24
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 14:35
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

 
i agree with the spirit of your post Raff. Smile But I disagree that there can be a judge of "good rap" vs "bad rap". Even women-degrading rap, as you call it, might have fans, even violence-promoting rap might have fans... all of that is very sociological and needs deeper analisys... What I'm trying to say is, we may not like something, but that doesn't mean we can judge what other people like.
 
Prog fans are not bigots. They're just jealous of the commercial  fortunes popular artists have. Why? Because it makes us feel special.


Teo, I like you very much, but I'm not a sociologist, so don't expect deeper sociological analyses from me. I am almost 20 years older than you are, and am well aware that even the worst music can have fans. Anyway, I am not judging anything, and would be grateful if people could read what I have written  before they disagree with me on principle. And I don't care two hoots about feeling special... If some prog fans have that attitude, it's their business, not mine. I just like what I like, that's all.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 14:35
Originally posted by June June wrote:

 
As for folk and country, well, folk is one of my favourite genre, but I was pretty stubborn when it came to country music, and really didn't want to listen to any of it, except for Johnny Cash and The Carter Family, but it just sneaked up on me.
 
"A Boy Named Sue" is rap, although they didn't call it that at the time.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 14:44
I agree that genre alone can never be the basis for discrimination. There are some rap and country tunes that I would listen to before some prog tunes (given the choice between Beastie Boys and Tormato, for one obvious example)...

But, it does seem that with rap and country, the most awful stuff seems to float to the top of the charts, whereas in prog, I generally do enjoy the bands that seem to be most popular amongst prog fans...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 14:57
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Perpetual myth of the snobbish prog fan....

Please take 5 minutes of your time and visit this site: http://zip.4chan.org/mu/imgboard.html

Look at all the prog fans snobbing up that place!




Bonus points: start a topic about Prog and see what happens.

Extra bonus troll points: start a topic on Magma and see what happens.

Ridiculous bonus troll points: Harry gets mad at me for linking to that site. Wink
GOD DAMN IT STONEBEARD!
if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 15:09
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Perpetual myth of the snobbish prog fan....

Please take 5 minutes of your time and visit this site: http://zip.4chan.org/mu/imgboard.html

Look at all the prog fans snobbing up that place!




Bonus points: start a topic about Prog and see what happens.

Extra bonus troll points: start a topic on Magma and see what happens.

Ridiculous bonus troll points: Harry gets mad at me for linking to that site. Wink
GOD DAMN IT STONEBEARD!


*Responds with meme*
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 15:17
I was just addressing a point about your post Raff, the "makes us feel special" part is not about you, who have made it clear you are not like that. Actually, I used "US" because at one point in life I also had those ridiculous ideas which I see everywhere in the forum these days...Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 15:22
Oh, I have a lot of ridiculous ideas myself - just not about prog, that isLOL!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 16:39
Originally posted by clarke2001 clarke2001 wrote:

Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

One thing is for sure: I'd take good pop any day over bad prog.



Clap

I'll just say one thing: there are no good or bad genres, there's only good or bad music!




Even that's not true. Music is art, and quality of art is based purely on opinions alone. And what makes one person's opinion more valuable than another's?

On topic, I love rap. I love the British scene above anything though, like Grime and British Garage. I also think that rap is even better when fused with rock music, a la Rage Against The Machine or Faith No More, although an example of this that never clicked with me would be LimpBizcit (or however the hell you spell it). At the moment I'm really getting into DnB with a heavy load of rap in it, like Roni Size or Chase and Status. Yep, I love rap. In fact, it's one of five genres that I listen to: Extreme Metal, Progressive Rock, DnB, Classical Music and finally Rap. And I also agree that there is a lot of creativity involved. Back when rap was in its infancy, there were some extremely poetic and intelligent lyrical content being thrown around.

As far as Country/Folk music goes, I like a bit of folk. Old Gypsy folk though, the kind that Brahms employed into his Hungarian dances. Country music I never got on with however. Dunno why, it just didn't click with me.
"Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 19:34
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Why bigots or even snobs?
 
Because we know what we like and whar we don't like?
 
There are lots of music I like, there's outstanding Pop, excellent mainstream Rock, Hard Rock, Metal, Jazz, Fusion, Country, Folk even some Punk..
 
But I don't like Rap or Hip Hop, I don't have to like everything, if you like rap and Hip Hop good for you, but don't judge people for not liking everything, I don't consider Rap as music, but some sort of street poetry with music in the background, and Hip Hop the worst thing that happened to music....And what about it?
 
I'm sure there's lots of music you don't like.
 
BTW: Bigotry is an offensive term  related mainly with intollerance or hatred against an ethnic, racial or religious group, so shouldn't be used to qualify people who simply know what they like and what they don't.
 
Iván
 
I apologize for the misunderstanding. I'm not trying to attack you for not enjoying a genre. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of making biased statements based on the bloated crap that is mainstream music.

Now, if you read my first post, you may notice that I asked for reasoned arguments for bigoted statements such as: "Hip Hop is the worst thing that happened to music". Frankly, that sort of thing is a bit irritating, and it's the reason why I started the thread in the first place. I'd like you to back that up with some clear cut logic, instead of vague generalizations.

The problem is of course, you can't, since personal taste is very subjective, and one man's masterpiece is another's trash. The purpose of the thread, for you then, is to explain in an unoffensive way, why you feel the way you do about rap and hip hop.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 20:31
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

It isn't bigotry to dislike other types of music - perhaps the wrong word to use, but I do certainly loathe personally rasp/hip hop and mass produced pulp pop. To me it is like the difference between Jilly Cooper or Jackie Collins (mass produced pulp novels) to good literature. The former I hate, the latter I enjoy and relish.

That is not to say that the consumers of such stuff are automatically inferior. At the end of the day, Simon Cowell has made an absolute fortune from producing pop to millions. I might not like it, but I long ago gave up trying to fight it - probably about the same time I realised that the UK wasn't going to have the promised revolution after allCry

I do, though, take great exception to the misogyny that is present in much rap, present day pop videos, and hip hop. I'm not a prude, not by any stretch of the imagination, but I would like my son to grow up with a healthy respect for women, and not just see them as a fantasy piece gyrating for all and sundry to ogle.

I am just an unashamed snob when it comes to TV, music, and literature. Not a bigot, just a snob.

Now then...can someone promise me that revolution?LOL


You make a great point about the content of mainstream hip hop and rap especially. The ideals on display are extremely degrading to women and I think african american culture as a whole. It's a difficult issue because it's a battle between freedom of speech, and what is right. Sometimes I just wish people were more sensible as a whole, but that's probably not going to happen any time soon.

As for the "bigotry" comment, I can see people up in arms about it. Honestly, the title of the thread was just something I thought was both amusing and likely to get people to click on it. It's very easy to sell controversy on this site LOL

My main theme was not whether we're bigots, but what we think about these different genres of music.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 22:17
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

It isn't bigotry to dislike other types of music - perhaps the wrong word to use, but I do certainly loathe personally rasp/hip hop and mass produced pulp pop. To me it is like the difference between Jilly Cooper or Jackie Collins (mass produced pulp novels) to good literature. The former I hate, the latter I enjoy and relish.

That is not to say that the consumers of such stuff are automatically inferior. At the end of the day, Simon Cowell has made an absolute fortune from producing pop to millions. I might not like it, but I long ago gave up trying to fight it - probably about the same time I realised that the UK wasn't going to have the promised revolution after allCry

I do, though, take great exception to the misogyny that is present in much rap, present day pop videos, and hip hop. I'm not a prude, not by any stretch of the imagination, but I would like my son to grow up with a healthy respect for women, and not just see them as a fantasy piece gyrating for all and sundry to ogle.

I am just an unashamed snob when it comes to TV, music, and literature. Not a bigot, just a snob.

Now then...can someone promise me that revolution?LOL



I don't think the bigotry is so much in disliking 'pop pulp' but in believing that the 'elitist' stuff one digs is inherently superior simply because of the genre of its origin.  I will offer an example without meaning offence to fans of the band but you know, the bigotry in vehemently expressing one's dislike for pop and then claiming Another Day to be a masterpiece.  I am not saying Another Day is a bad song and I hope my point is understood.  I think it's important for the 'snob' to make that distinction, else he's more of a laughing 'stock'.  To give an example from the world of books, I dig James Hadley Chase because as someone who aspires to be a writer, I'd love to be able to write that vividly, racily and crisply, doesn't waste a word, that man. On the other hand, I intensely disliked the one book of Jane Austen I read - namely Sense and Sensibility - because...eh, long story(or a litany of complaints?)!  LOL  So..what I am saying is that assuming Chase is terrible and Austen is brilliant purely on the strength of their genres is a mistake..at least I think it's a mistake.  Beyond that, what one would prefer to read or listen to (as in music) is entirely one's business. Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 25 2009 at 03:38
Originally posted by Jim Garten Jim Garten wrote:

Absolutely Raff - but I'd always differentiate between Metal & prog metal; to my ears, metal means bands such as Motorhead, Priest, System Of A Down & so on.

I remember many many arguments in my youth trying to differentiate between heavy metal, heavy rock & hard rock

But that's away from the point...

Back to the original quote - I think had Fuxi meant the fans he would have said "they're loved by their fans because THEY are loud, rough and uncouth" as opposed to "they're loved by their fans because they ARE loud, rough and uncouth"

A small distinction, I know, but as I say, I could be wrong...


I thank you, Jim, and I apologise for my sloppy writing. You were 100% right: I was referring to the music, not to the fans.

Like nearly all of us I grew up with rock music, and I love certain albums because they are so loud, e.g. THE WHO LIVE AT LEEDS: part of the appeal is its sheer wildness.

I once fell in love with a girl who happened to be a classical flautist. I wanted to turn her on to WHO'S NEXT, which is fairly aggressive (though not as rough as LIVE AT LEEDS) but also, to my ears, incredibly subtle, precise, exciting AND moving. You sometimes read the Who used to play with the precision of chamber musicians, and that's the way I've always felt myself. So I started from the start: "Baby O'Riley" - could she hear it was GLORIOUS? No, she could not. Then I played "My Wife" - wasn't that really exhilerating, just for the drumming? Apparently it was not. Only when I played her "Behind Blue Eyes" she seemed to melt a bit. At least until all hell broke loose towards the end.

And this was not because she was a snob or a bigot. She was an incredibly nice person - intelligent, sensitive and spontaneous. But it was her tragedy (?) that she was only accustomed to music that was incredibly suble and refined (without getting sentimental). She had no ears for amplified music.

I have a similar problem with metal. It's a dimension I do not move in. I've got no problem with Led Zep, ever since I learnt to live with Robert Plant's wail, and I enjoy, for example, the Mars Volta's early albums (which are pretty wild, but sufficiently varied and intricate) - but metal???

I KNOW its fans like it 'cause it's rough and uncouth, 'cause when I was in the army (oh Glory Days!) my roommate (who was also my best friend there) was an amateur heavy metal guitarist who enjoyed nothing more than playing Venom, Loudness, and early Metallica tapes, jumping up and down wildly in the room while banging his head forcefully against our metal locker! I got on really well with him, 'cause the music he enjoyed had far more character than the rubbish most of the other guys liked (there were two WHAM! freaks in our room) and yes, there were prog-like passages in it.

Still, I've never been tempted to explore the collected works of Venom and Metallica. (Or even Iron Maiden, Queensryche and the like.) Life is too short, and I'm busy enough exploring other genres.

The same goes for rap. If I wanted to, I'm sure I could become a rap aficionado and learn to appreciate the manifold ways rappers spout their words. But the relentless beat puts me off and if I feel like listening to poetry I'll get some British Library recordings instead!

So does all this turn me into a "bigot"? Heaven forbid. It just seems that, as you explore certain alleys (and for me, in the past few decades, those alleys have led mainly to French and Italian baroque music, pre-romantic symphonies and oratorios, Berlioz operas, and post-1970 jazz of European origin) you turn your back to others. It simply cannot be helped. But each to his own!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 25 2009 at 09:01
"Intolerant of or takes offense to the opinions differing from his own".
Kinda sounds like a lot of posts I've read on every website forum I've ever been on.
I am intolerant of a lot of things but I seldom take offense. I am, however, offended by a lot of the lyrics in Rap, especially Gangsta Rap.
Do I feel that the music I listen to is better than most  non-prog? You Bet! Why do you think I listen to it?
But that doesn't make me "cool" because I didn't create or perform the music, the bands I like did that. So that makes them "cool".
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